Amazing HVAC Techs

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James, in a previous post you said that HVAC-R isn't a science. I'd beg to differ. I have to know many things that can be considered scientific in nature. I have to know the properties of many materials and how they will react in a given situation. It is a part of our jobs to experiment with different chemicals, air flows, gasses, refrigerants, steam, controls, setpoints, temperatures, programs, timers, valves, flow controls, etc, to make the most efficient and/or best operating system we can manage with the tools and knowledge we have at hand. 8oz. of refrigerant can easily cost you 10% or better on your monthly electric bill.
Do you want the company that just adds enough refrigerant to make your system cool or do you want the person who will go about charging your system scientifically and thus having the most reliable, efficient, and stable system possible.
The bottom line is that those of us who have spent any amount of time (18+ years myself) learning and bettering ourselves in this field don't take condescending remarks any better than if I were to say the same about your chosen profession. What is it that you do for a living? Chances are that I can do it too.
...Ron -- 68'RS Camaro 88'Formula 00'GT Mustang
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Science is the gathering of previously unknown information or properties through developing theorems and testing the validity of them. An hvac technician is using already known properties of materials and equipment to achieve the proper operation of that equipment. Technical yes, but not science. You don't experiment, you calibrate. If you were developing a new refrigerant that would be experimenting. You really want to lay claim that an hvac technician is the same skill level as as, say, a phd chemist?
You're making the same mistake. I never claimed that any home owner or diy'er had anything nearly equal to the experience of a senior hvac technician. I just said that there are some problems on basic residential split ac and heaters that may be within their ability to fix. For example you really think no one but an hvac technician can figure out that a 24v transformer is bad and replace it? Like the other poster pointed out, you can probably figure out if the floppy drive on your computer was bad and relplace it even thought you are not a computer technician. But if a midsized unix machine won't powers up but won't bootstrap can you fix it?
wrote:

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"8((` ` end
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Even using your definition hvac is not a science. The science involved would be thermodynamics. Everything we do involves science. You are using science to make a post to call me an idiot. If you fix your computer by replacing the floppy drive does that make you a computer scientist? If you want to base when it is science and when it is not on a certain level of complexity then it becomes subjective. How about the guy fixing a nuclear reactor, to him fixing a residential ac might not meet the same subjective level of complexity.
The point I was countering was that the other poster wanted to claim it was science because he experimented as part of his job. Any outcome of a change in factors involving a residential ac is completely predictable based on already known laws of physics. Given ALL the facts someone sitting in an office could arrive at the outcome. Expermentation is the proof or disproof of a theorum. Very few people in the world experiment. Most repeat experiments that have already been done.
Happy t'day btw :-)

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Bzzzzt.... Wrong answer. Try again. http://tinyurl.com/yjvlma

I'm assuming that you screwed up, and really meant "But if a midsized UNIX machine powers up but won't bootstrap can you fix it?"
You mean like a VME bus box with a MVME167 running System V. Well, first start by looking at the messages from the console port, and..... Well, you wouldn't understand. That was a bad choice of a question to try to show how much more you know that the HVAC "monkeys" don't. You would be really surprised how many environmental management systems use those "midsized UNIX machines". Occasionally, after it's scientifically determine that that there coil ain't beer can cold, a discussion will be had with an environmental / energy management system based on.... Yup, you guessed right, a midsized UNIX machine. I've even had to resolve issues where it powers up, but won't boot. Hint: sometimes they drop to monitor....
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Every time I come up to any piece of equipment that has a problem, it is an unknown. I follow certain rules to come to a conclusion just like a scientist working on a cure for idiocy does.

Yes, I can and will say that upwards to 25% of techs out there are smarter than your general PHD chemist. Apple and oranges really. In fact a hvac service technician would have an easier time learning chemistry than the chemist learning hvac-r.
I don't think that it matters what anyone writes here. I believe that you are prejudiced against anyone that has made their chosen profession in a mechanical trade. Good luck to you. I hope that you have no need for a service tech any time soon.
...Ron

-- 68'RS Camaro 88'Formula 00'GT Mustang
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Let's test you guys :-) What is the common property of refrigerants that makes them good at what they are used for?
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The $$ attached to them. Bubba

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Bzzzzzt - wrong answer.
Try another question, if I had to use water as a refrigerant what conditions would I need at the evaporator?
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The answer to #1. is stability
#2. What you are probably looking for is a vacuum. There are many other conditions necessary though for an absorber to operate.
...Ron -- 68'RS Camaro 88'Formula 00'GT Mustang
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Better :-) You are of course right about the water. The density of water as a gas is low and water molecules are on the small side.
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wrote:

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of course not, thats something you could easily google. i notice that you never told me how many microns of humidity was safe (hint: before mold sets in).
--
Nathan in Montana
http://ConcealedCarryForum.com
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Too late. Mold already set in...

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UVC the dam mold!
UVC I tell you

you
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"microns of humidity" Hi Nathan the Relative Humidity is never measured in Microns but in percent for must of us techs. However in Engineering it is measured in Grams per pound of dry air. now I have no ability to gave you formula but I am sure if you are interested you will find it Dido say that
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.....it was a trick question intended to stumble him to make a point.
--
Nathan in Montana
http://ConcealedCarryForum.com
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Furnaces older than 10 years or so are just like the older cars. There wasn't much to them and any one with a little mechanical ability and the willingness to research a repair could fix most things wrong with them.
Today's furnaces are more like today's cars. You need special gadgetry (how'd you like that word) to diagnose them. You need alot more knowledge into the innards of the equipment. I do not know squat about cars, I just know if it is more than fluid exchanges I need to stay away from it.
I know HVAC so I can comment on that. If you are not properly trained you may get it to work. I am not losing a dime by not giving you information here, nor is anyone else. I could give you the wrong answer, that in this litigious society could possibly cause me problems.
You will find guys from all walks of the HVAC world on this group, you will also find some who are not in the field at all, and a few people hang around just to get under others skin. All of us, on occasion, get tired of the same old home owner questions. They don't give us enough information to help them, some you can tell are dangerous to themselves, some just start out nasty because they heard we were a bunch of jerks in here (don't quite know why they came here then), or they don't like the answers that we give them anyway. If we don't answer their questions they go on tirades about how we are all rapists and crooks, and belittle the competency that we truly need for our jobs. On occasion we may answer or deal with that person in a slightly rude way, or mess with their heads for a while
Some are a little more militant in their style, probably because they have been dealing with it alot longer than others.
It's usenet, it's unmoderated, you can pretty much do what ever you want to say or do. No one has to be nice to you.
This newsgroup is a far cry from what the industry and it's employees really are. They guys that reply that are from the industry and work out on the street just got done working 8-10 hours listening to customers complain about how much everything costs. Do you really think they want to go relax on the internet and deal with home owners that think we charge too much. They may want to bullshit with other guys just like them.
I hope every one has a wonderful Thanksgiving. God Bless and enjoy your families.
--
Bob Pietrangelo
snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net
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On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 01:36:40 -0500, "Bob Pietrangelo"

Given your first paragraph, I would suggest that they would be better served with a private BBS or news server. As you say, usenet is public and unmoderated. Add into that that most people who even know about it are going to be at least mildly technically competent and of course when they have problems with their AC they're (as I did) going to ask in here.
It might be easier to view such queries as "Something is up with my AC, is this really something that warrants calling someone out or will he just wiggle a connector and laugh at me as he drives off down the street lighting his cigar with one of the handful of $100s I just handed him". If you (not you specifically) can't provide a civil answer, everyone is probably best served by no answer. A snarky answer just adds to the image that makes people post here instead of just going ahead and calling a professional out straight away anyway. But again, this is usenet and people are free to post what they want.
FWIW, it is not just this group, I have seen this in other trade newsgroups also. Contrast this with most computer based groups where if you demonstrate that you have at least researched the problem a little and you'll probably find people who will help you. Consider that and you'll maybe understand a bit better the people who come on here asking questions and why the attitude some of these questions get back seems somewhat uncalled for. OTOH, go on those same computer newsgroups with no research and you'll get called out just as fiercely as anthing you see on here.
Rich
--
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I
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wrote:

Oh shit, another round of unsolicited advise and dicipline from another pissy homoaner/wanna-be Internet SuperStar....
As you say, usenet is public

Yeah, when Bubba leaves the skylight open....

Do you think that anyone here gives a flying fuck what you think? Do you think anyone here cares to hear any of your self-proclaimed wanna-be Internet Superstar shit spouting?
But

Then maybe it is YOU who is fucked up. Maybe YOUR understanding of the world around you is fucked.
Contrast this with most computer based groups where

So fucking what? This ain't no computer forum with faggy computer geeks hanging out.

Yeah, and you are free to go away, so do it.
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