We are screwed

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Not sure whether this is the correct group to state this, however. If the human population keeps on as it presently, the planet is screwed.
rob
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wrote:

"we are screwed" plugged into Google gets over 32 million results. Pretty popular opinion, I'd say.
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and the sheep say "baaah"
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Billy

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And what has brought on this sudden observation Rob? By that I mean, has any specific incident set off this line of thought, or is it just a sudden realisation?
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wrote:

All you state is true and thanks for the observations on Cuba. Your water degradation parallels ours, though ours started sooner. Hell, man, we aren't even supposed to eat the fish out of our rivers in my part of the world, at least not more than one per week. Children shouldn't eat any. Yeah, that sounds like healthy fish.
We have been dumping millions of pounds of poison on our crops and soil every year for decades. Dead dolphins wash ashore after being killed by military waste dumped offshore decades ago. Last week a housing subdivision in Florida was evacuated because they "discovered" it had been built on an old military testing range and live WWII erea munitions were being dug up.
We are in process of perhaps genetically altering all life on earth. Check out this cheery article:
http://countercurrents.org/mucci181007.htm
As you state, our infrastructure is crumbling, bridges falling in the river, water systems falling apart, roads deteriorating at an alarming rate. Hell, our infrastructure is being sold off to the highest bidders! From anywhere.
Here is just one of many articles:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_top+story
You may have heard about the Dubai Ports deal that didn't happen here, where our ports were up for sale, great plan that.
Eff me, Rob. I could rant forever about this.
You are right, we are screwed.
Carpe diem.
G'luck to us all Charlie
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One sun heats our ocean Many clouds form and carry water Condensate our rain falls pure Unless our smoke is filtered and only small particles fly to be trapped in the condensate.
Perhaps less generated will not overwhelm the system. But can our children have less? But can we redirect a % of military for global health? The last two buts seem to be diametrically opposed yet the latter was to protect the former.
Bill Waxing
Insane Eh?
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On Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:38:46 -0400, William Wagner

Hardly.
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Charlie

Ohh...
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<Charlie> wrote in message

society may collapse in a screaming heap and very quickly our civilised way of life screeches to a abrupt halt. I am not sure what the days were like on Easter Island following the last tree being felled. It may have been that way, it may have been a more gradual decline into a lower plain of living. The latter is what I observed in Cuba, things didn't suddenly and irreperably fall apart yet the deprivation the populace went through was significant and real.
I suspect that if we continue as we are, or make piecemeal steps toward trying to clean up our crap, the environmental constraints we will come up against will mean society continues along but will face lean times and tough times. I may not expect total anarchy but it will get harder. Thats not just economy wise with things like rising unemployment, inflation, lower growth etc. I also imagine things like infrastructure decay, shortages, maybe rationing & social dislocation.
Cubas experience, whilst by no means absolutely prefiguritive displayed all of that. Decaying water, power, transport & housing infrastructure. Shortages of oil, chemicals, food, basic household commodities & transport. Social dislocation did not occur so much perhaps as people moving large distances as rather a generation growing up in leaner times than those before (and I have to state that tentatively as this is only a snapshot observation). The legitemacy of the system previous generations had accepted, ie consent given by previous generations, because it gave them security of life was not mirrored automatically by the younger generations.
That said, if we unknowingly reached a tipping point, the environment may simply spasm and stop working properly setting loose a plague of plagues thereby causing massive chaos and casualty. The stuff of Hollywood or nuclear winter type scenario. I presume Easter Island did not suddenly become uninhabitable once the last tree was chopped but successive generations may have had a little less than the ones before. Confitions and quality of life went down a little year by year. The eventual outcome foe Easter Island was apparently internal strife and bloodshed. I am not suggesting automatically that is the end result for us all. We may become a little wiser and learn to live within the means of what we have, live a negotiated society where things are more rationed and planned. I can't see the current helter skelter of our existence continuing on however. Maybe I am better to say "Our Current Mode of Life is screwed".
rob
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wrote:
<snip of good analysis>

I am not that hopeful. Compared to a few years ago, our current mode *is* already really screwed, and things appear to be going to hell in handbasket in a big fat hurry, IMO.
Many days I feel as if I am working through Elisabeth Kubler-Ross's steps. Good for the soul, this working through things ahead of time and hopefully getting to the point of seizing and appreciating each day as if it were my last.
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_2543.shtml
Carpe Diem
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Care, Rob
Charlie
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Everyone addicted to the same nicotine Everyone addicted to the same gasoline Everyone addicted to a technicolour scream Everybody trying to get their hands on same green
Yell Fire, Michael Franti
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Billy

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Some alternative must therefore be necessary if we are heading toward rooting our current way of life. Permaculture sets out some ways I can envisage occurring. I guess I see this as an alternative type of approach, whether we have the mind to achievable it. From wikipedia:
At the heart of permaculture design and practice is a fundamental set of 'core values' or ethics. These 'ethics' are often summarised as; Earthcare - recognising that the Earth is the source of all life (and is possibly itself a living entity- see Gaia theory) and that we recognise and respect that the Earth is our valuable home and we are a part of the Earth, not apart from it. Peoplecare - supporting and helping each other to change to ways of living that are not harming ourselves or the planet, and to develop healthy societies. Fairshare (or placing limits on consumption) - ensuring that the Earth's limited resources are utilised in ways that are equitable and wise.
And weblink permaculture 'map'
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Permamandala.jpg
My vision of Cuba, before I went there, was of a developing country permaculture. In many ways I guess it is when placed alongside the tests outlined above.
There is an intense debate happening in NZ at present over housing affordibility (becoming less and less affordible). Some 'experts' point ot scarcity of land as fueling costs & advocate unlocking large amounts of land on the fringes of our cities to drop the market on sections. All good and fine we may think however I wonder about then people moving their way around a city, to work, for leisure etc. Our cities do not have great public transport as our population density is low.
An alternate view is for more intensive city living with compact housing and multi dwelling sections built around transport hubs, thereby limiting urban sprawl. If the density goes up the effective costs of per person public transport goes the opposite way. There are limits however on land so costs go up.
The former approach is essentially unlock a free market & let the market decide. Problem is the market is premised on cheap oil and ability to travel distance. The latter is premised more along pseudo-permaculture lines. Problem there is cost pricing a section of the populace out of home ownership. An area for government intervention & assistance maybe.
rob
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Some alternative must therefore be necessary if we are heading toward rooting our current way of life. Permaculture sets out some ways I can envisage occurring. I guess I see this as an alternative type of approach, whether we have the mind to achievable it. From wikipedia:
At the heart of permaculture design and practice is a fundamental set of 'core values' or ethics. These 'ethics' are often summarised as; Earthcare - recognising that the Earth is the source of all life (and is possibly itself a living entity- see Gaia theory) and that we recognise and respect that the Earth is our valuable home and we are a part of the Earth, not apart from it. Peoplecare - supporting and helping each other to change to ways of living that are not harming ourselves or the planet, and to develop healthy societies. Fairshare (or placing limits on consumption) - ensuring that the Earth's limited resources are utilised in ways that are equitable and wise.
And weblink permaculture 'map'
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Permamandala.jpg
My vision of Cuba, before I went there, was of a developing country permaculture. In many ways I guess it is when placed alongside the tests outlined above.
There is an intense debate happening in NZ at present over housing affordibility (becoming less and less affordible). Some 'experts' point ot scarcity of land as fueling costs & advocate unlocking large amounts of land on the fringes of our cities to drop the market on sections. All good and fine we may think however I wonder about then people moving their way around a city, to work, for leisure etc. Our cities do not have great public transport as our population density is low.
An alternate view is for more intensive city living with compact housing and multi dwelling sections built around transport hubs, thereby limiting urban sprawl. If the density goes up the effective costs of per person public transport goes the opposite way. There are limits however on land so costs go up.
The former approach is essentially unlock a free market & let the market decide. Problem is the market is premised on cheap oil and ability to travel distance. The latter is premised more along pseudo-permaculture lines. Problem there is cost pricing a section of the populace out of home ownership. An area for government intervention & assistance maybe.
rob
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<Charlie> wrote in message

_ snip-

CFLs with their mercury are part of the problem. Domestic use LED (Light Emitting Diode) bulb technology is there to make bulbs that: 1) are more energy efficient than CFLs, 2) last longer than CFLs, 3) work with dimmer switches and other devices that CFLs don't. Some in the "Green" movement are in league with business that are blocking these bulbs from being produced so that they can make their money on CFLs. Always follow the money.
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wrote:

I knew that when I was 15 years old, a very long time ago! I have often said women have to stop this five baby syndrome. Okay, what I really said was that women had to stop having litters. I was violent attacked and lambasted.
I wish people whould stop having children for one generation. Just have one baby per couple at most.
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yep, it kinda makes me wanna smack some sense into ya too
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Yes. And, most of the major problems today are a result of that. The symptoms get attention and may be treated, but never the actual cause. Jang has the right idea. Dave
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Hmmm.....
I would not worry too much about over population. It is sort of like the predator / prey thing. Too many foxes results in fewer rabbits. Too many humans / less food / fewer humans.
If that does not work, I am sure the Bio-Agriculture industry can modify the foods so that sterility increases world wide. To help in the population reduction. If they are not doing that now.
So take a note from Charles Darwin .. survival of the fittest :) OR take a note from the Bible (King Solomon) Eat, Drink and be Merry :)
For tomorrow it may be all she wrote. It just sounds better than DEAD.
A bumper sticker I saw long ago "Save the planet - kill yourself".
The local cynic .... Dan
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In article

I think of the Italian aristocrats who about 1300 ad said the world was terrible and decided to be barren. I can't find the cite for that but they are now extinct. Some folks worry too much. If heaven brings forth things work with it if so inclined. The nature of existence is what this is about. Sweet, Sour, Bitter and
Bill Your Choice.
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On Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:13:16 -0400, William Wagner

Point taken and I often meditate upon what you once said.....
" Heaven brings forth individuals in it's own way."
Charlie
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Dan L. said:

Or, take a note from Einstein, who said that when the bees go, humans will go in six years. That makes a helluva lot of sense, when you think about it.
[rest snipped]
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