Use Weeds Killer to Keep Weeds Out of My Flower Garden?

[Jay Chan]

I see that home center sells some chemical weed killers that are supposed to be used in a flower garden. Are they good? Can I safely use those chemicals around plants that I have planted in the garden? I don't hear much about this type of product. Seem like I hear mostly about similar products that we use in lawn, but not in a garden.

I would like to find a way to keep weeds out of my flower garden in order to reduce the never ending task of pulling weeds out from the garden.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

---------------------------------------------------------- The following is the reason why I want to use weeds killer instead of mulch. This is not directly related to this post. But I mention the reason here just in case someone wonders why I don't use mulch.

----------------------------------------------------------

I know I could have put mulch to suppress weeds and to ease the task of pulling out weeds. In the first year after I put mulch in the flower garden, I found that the mulch really helped me to reduce weeds in my flower garden. But a couple years later, the mulch is pretty much rotted and decomposed to be similar to soil. This means it no longer functions as mulch.

If I keep adding mulch, I will do more harm than good. The reason is that the flower garden is a rised bed around the house foundation. There is only 8" clearance between the mulch and the wooden structure of my house. I am afraid that putting more mulch will reduce the clearance to a point that I will invite termites into my house. Actually, I may decide to remove the existing mulch from around the foundation garden just to increase the clearance between the wooden structure from the soil.

And I really don't like to use inorganic mulch (such as stones) in areas where I will be actively doing planting every year.

I guess the other alternative is to replace the existing mulch with new mulch, and do this every two years or so. This sounds like a lot of work though; I probably prefer hand pulling weeds than replacing the mulch.

[Sunflower]

Mulch. You are not going to get a huge buildup as it breaks down over time. Every 5-7 years, you can remove the top layer, but you are not going to get a huge buildup by adding mulch annually.

[Warren]

Unless your raised bed around the house is sitting on a slab of concrete, the soil and mulch will settle over time, and by the time the mulch "no longer functions as mulch", you'll probably have enough settling that you'll be able to put new mulch right on top.

You could also use a stone or gravel mulch right next to the house -- like the first 6-12" from the foundation, and start the organic mulch away from the house. You shouldn't be planting that close to the house, and you can probably find a stone that goes well with your organic mulch. For example, red lava rock would work well in the back of a bed mulched with a red or brown bark mulch.

[Bob S.]

Why do you suppose archeological finds are usually under 10-15 feet of soil? They don't sink, they get covered up with mulched plant material.

[Jay Chan]

You are right to say that the mulch will settle. The mulch in my garden probably has settled by half of the original thickness after three years. I probably can put in one more inch of mulch over the existing mulch without reducing the clearance around the house foundation by too much.

Thanks for pointing this out.

I have thought of that. But I have a feeling that the organic mulch will spill over to the inorganic mulch and I will have a hard time cleaning the mix of organic mulch and inorganic mulch. This is one of the reason why I don't like to use inorganic mulch.

Seem like no one suggests using weed killer. Oh well...

Jay Chan

[Salty Thumb]

[e-mail] (Jay Chan) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Try landscape fabric. It blocks a lot of weeds and makes pulling the others easier. However, manufacturers recommend you cover the fabric with X inches (cm) of mulch.

As for using herbicides, I never had to do it, so I don't know. (Have had landscape fabric installed 2-3 years now).

[Salty Thumb]

[e-mail] (Bob S.) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Because anything from 10 ft up is easily discovered and likely has been either been discovered already or disturbed and conmingled, ruining the archaeological value?

[Jay Chan]

Actually, I had already had landscape fabric installed before I put mulch. As I said, it helps in the first one or two years. Now, four years later, I find that the following things makes it increasing less effective in blocking weeds:

- I like to plant new stuffs (such as annuals). Therefore, I keep digging through the landscape fabrics; this not only making holes on the landscape fabrics, but also causing soil to be spreaded on top of the mulch and got all mixed together.

- As mentioned previously, the mulch has decomposed significantly and become more like soil than mulch.

Moreover, I become less and less like to use landscape fabrics (and mulch) because it prevents me from easily adding fertilizer or other goodies directly to the soil. Seem like the only way to add fertilizer is using liquid fertilizer.

Thanks.

Jay Chan

[Doug Kanter]

Your last paragraph is exactly right. Gimmicks get in the way eventually. So:

Get yourself a good weeding tool that allows you to do the job WITHOUT KNEELING. With the right tool, it's effortless. And, weeding slows you down long enough to notice things happening (good or bad) in the garden. The trick is to make the whole thing easy.

Go to tools, digging and cultivation. Check out the Precision Weeder hand tool (for on-the-knees weeding - an AMAZING tool), and the Long-Handled Weeder. I've been using these two tools for years. Not only do they take care of weeding, but they also fluff the upper layer of soil slightly, which helps it retain moisture. Keep a sharpening stone in the garage to touch up the blades when necessary.

No experience with this one, but a friend swears by it: Cape cod weeder:

Go to the tools section, and then to the Digging and Cultivating section.

[nswong]

fertilizer

If you using mulch and without landscape fabrics, adding fertilizer in the mulch are better than add it to soil. I read some articles about this before, but sorry had forgot the details.

I prefer to add fertilizer to my compost than soil or mulch, it will buffer up the nutrient and mix up better in the compost.

Regards, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

[Salty Thumb]

[e-mail] (Jay Chan) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

When I add something (which is rare) I usually just make a slit with a razor or if it's big, I cut a V shape or similar, leaving part of the fabric attached. (I think instructions recommend an X shape.) Bulbs don't seem to have a problem pushing the flap and mulch aside to grow through the opening. I do get a some soil on the fabric, but I usually leave it unless it's big pile, then I just scoop it up, push it back into an opening or throw it in the lawn. If you've got too many open holes to patch, you should probably just throw the fabric out, even though it should last 15 years. Especially if you perpetually find yourself with more plants than openings.

I'm using large pine bark nuggets and haven't noticed a problem with that. What kind of mulch are you using?

I don't add stuff to my flower bed, but I guess you could make more flaps next to your plants and stick stuff in a pile under them. If you're feeling the need to mix things in, well that's another story.

[Salty Thumb]

"Doug Kanter" wrote in news:lzZCc.28$ [e-mail]:

The other day, I weeded my flower beds, which consisted of bending over to pull a total of 4 weeds with my bare hand (no glove even). The weeds were reasonably sized, 3-5" across but had the root systems of a 2 day old pansy.

[Jay Chan]

I use shredded cedar chips mulch. Seem like large nuggets that you use work better than shredder chips because they last longer. I even found two groups of termintes in the shredder cedar chips after I had put them in the flower garden for just two years. This is one of the reason why I want to remove the mulch (but I keep delaying doing this for one thing or the others). I probably need to remove them and put them in a compost pile (that I should have done one year ago).

Do you think termintes will bother large pine bark nuggets? How long do you think the large nuggets will remain effective in keeping termintes out?

Sooner or later, you will need to put amendment to the soil, right? How do you get away from doing this?

Jay Chan

[Jay Chan]

Why will this work? Does this have something to do with the mulch may absorb the liquid fertilizer and slowly release it, or something like that?

I heard that we need to add fertilizer or blood meal into compost pile because the composting process uses a lot of nitrogen or something like that. Is this one of the reason why you add fertilizer into your compost pile? In fact, I have already been doing this.

The problem is that there is no easy way to get the compost into the soil without removing the mulch and the landscape fabric. So far, I can only use my compost into the vegetable garden. But I cannot use it in my flower garden near the house foundation because it is covered with mulch and landscape fabric. So I end up dumping all the remaining finished compost into the vegetable garden, and I have to use liquid fertilizer onto the flower garden. Well, at least, the green peppers are doing well (and they taste great too).

Jay Chan

[nswong]

Hi Jay Chan,

As a guy work by project basic in software development, I got a habit to scan through all the available information, pinpoint and go into the detail what are applicable to the project, but ignore all the rest that is not relevant.

Since I will not supplement nutrients by top dressing, so I donot try to memorize or keep notes on this. What I recalled may not be reliable.

My English vocabulary are computer line oriented, I know very little about English in other field. So I may use wrong words.

Sorry about this. :-(

fertilizer in

For what I know, nutrient availability are mainly affect by two factor:

1. Lost by leaching, erosion(with soil), volatilization(nitrogen)...
2. Fixation/bind with other nitrient.

Mulch and the life form(fungus, insect...) in it will hold the nutrient from fertilizer(reduce the nutrient lost), and slowly release it(reduce nutrient binding).

What I try to say are, if the nutrient from material that make up the compost are not enough to supply what plant needed, we can either add the fertilizer(synthetic/organic) to soil/mulch or compost heap.

Add fertilizer to soil may cause lost and bindup. Add to mulch, it will not distribute evenly, and will cause mulch decompose faster if it contain nitrogen(mulch suppose to be long lasting). Add to compost heap, it will mixed up nicely by man(turning the compost) or other life form(moving/carry around).

You can top dress the compost/fertilizer on the mulch, the nutrient release will bring down to plant root by rain water in liquid form. But somehow this will also encourage weed grow on top of your landscape fabric.

I donot and will not use landscape fabric. I do adding new mulch on top of old mulch to maintain the thickness of mulch.

HTH, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

[Jay Chan]

Same here, same here.

"Leaching" and "erosion" are not the words that I normally use (I always need to look up my electronic dictionary for these type of words). Seem like you are ahead of me in this area.

This is something that I still cannot figure out how to solve -- I mean I cannot solve it without a lot of effort.

Jay Chan

[Doug Kanter]

Jay, you're making this into too big a problem. As I mentioned before, get the right tools and weeding can be a pleasure. You can do it with a beer in one hand.

[nswong]

Are you also a software developer? In what type of environment? End user or vendor? Application development or system programming?

Agriculture are the second best of my English vocabulary, but far from computer. :-)

nutrient

No single solution will fit all the problem. The way you choose will depend on your plan in mind and your current situation.

If your garden are small, hand weeding may be the best route for you as what Doug Kanter suggested.

I'm going to large scale but without heavy machinary after the initial grading and soil buildup, so I choose mulch.

Regards, Wong

-- Latitude: 06.10N Longitude: 102.17E Altitude: 5m

[Salty Thumb]

[e-mail] (Jay Chan) wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I haven't the slightest idea. I didn't know termites would eat or live in cedar (or I could be thinking of something else). I did find some termites in a buried tree stump far behind the house, but haven't seen any in the mulch. [Dumb question: are you sure they are termites?]

I used large pine bark nuggets because they are relatively heavy (so wind doesn't blow them away as much), large (so they don't slip through cracks in the fabric), have less surface area (compared to equivalent volume of other mulch) and most importantly, they were on sale. As far as pests, I've seen slugs underneath wet nuggets, so you may reconsider if you grow stuff that slugs like to eat. They don't seem to bother my plants.

Come to think of it, I did dig a hole next to a rose bush and buried a couple of banana peels (potassium, etc) down there. I'm not really into growing flowers, so if I needed a specific amendment, I probably wouldn't know it. When I put in the bed, it was overgrown with all sorts of stuff, but I just covered it with landscape fabric, so quite possibly that old stuff has been serving as compost (or slug food) for the last few years. I'm pretty happy as long as the flower bed doesn't look like the ditch next to the road and I don't have to weed it constantly.

If you are insane, you can bury a gradually perforated pipe under the bed. When you want to fertilize, drop your fertilizer down an access tube and flush it in with water. Check out tips on using prefabricated perforated drainage pipes to abate soil clogging. However, some of those methods (drain sock) may or may not prevent your fertilizer from getting out.

[Jay Chan]

I develop applications for our company -- mainly support the production line operation.

My garden is small; but my time allocated to gardening is even smaller... I will try the hand weeder tools that Doug Kanter has suggested. They sound promising.

Good luck with whatever way that you choose for your garden.

Jay Chan