The most toxic town in America (Monsanto)

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Ah, the last bastion of a loser......calling people names.
Yes, people do say things. Stupid things. And you are a gleaming example. Go right ahead and believe your Monsanto gods. :::shaking head:::: I really don't see why people defend Monsanto so ferverently. Monsanto doesn't give a sh*t about you, they'll mow you over to make a profit. And you'll defend them until they do.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
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Under law, alas, corporations are persons, with the individual rights of free speech (or expensive speech in paid advertising) & suchlike that SHOULD belong to individuals but are purchased by corporations so that rights become increasingly the province of Corporations that can afford these rights, & not of individuals. The spokespersons & legal teams & bought-&-paid-for research teams get paid to speak for the corporation, not for themselves.
When you make these infantile deluded arguments as you persistant in doing, you just make yourself sound sillier projecting your own failings onto Ann & others.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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And considering the historic trackrecord of the evidence presented by MS in this case and in the case of RU it is very much relevant. See also post by Salty Thumb.
I think we should let our governements revoke all approvings to Monsanto. In fact, I think the company should be closed down, the CEO's jailed and then lets take our time and find out if they did anything right.
Ursa..
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It is entirely apropos of the fact that this is a company like Monsanto. Which now has a record of poisoning the environment, of covering up what they know about the toxicity, using the courts to slow remediation and apparently even having control over the EPA. Take a look at their political contributions list. That is what 60 minutes was talking about. Do you seriously think you know everything about Roundup? Do you seriously think this company has seen the error of its ways? Ingrid

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net / www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
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I know that when USED AS RECOMMENDED it works just fine in my yard.

That's the quasi-religious agenda again. Monsanto (and Dupont, Dow etc) are satans.
As I said in another reply, such social agendas are off-topic for this newsgroup. The safety of Round-up is a valid topic, but can only be answered by reference to personal experience and bio-chemistry. Not being a bio-chemist, I quote my personal experience. Bio-chemists say it is safe WHEN USED AS RECOMMENDED.
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You must be a happy man, Dave, if such ignorance gives you peace of mind.
Ursa..
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On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 15:46:23 -0400, "Dave Gower"

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References?
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On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:18:16 -0400, "Dave Gower"

Able to follow a thread?
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I will continue to point out your ignorant, agenda-driven drivel as much as I want.
"rec-gardens" is a newsgroup devoted to helping people with home gardening issues, not debate industrial history or public policy. Those topics should be taken to the appropriate newsgroups i.e. ones that start with "sci" or "soc". They are off-topic here.
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OK.. this is how the thread developed
1. is roundup safe? 2. probably not, it is made by Monsanto who does not put consumers first, monsanto, you know, the people made PCBs since 1930 and still is fighting having to clean up after themselves, the ones poisoned a whole town, hid what they knew, when they knew it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List http://puregold.aquaria.net / www.drsolo.com Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the endorsements or recommendations I make.
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snipped-for-privacy@wi.rr.xx.com wrote in

and 3., who spent 10 million on lawyers to not to have to pay a few million in damage rewards to the ppl who lost their health and maybe relatives because of the poisoning.
Ursa..
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Most of us are not that stupid. We know that an issue from another time, about another chemical, when the company was run by different managers, faced different laws, was operating with different scientific knowledge, cannot be used to answer a question about a garden chemical sold in 2003.
You bunch are obviously abysmally ignorant of how corporations work (and of course you would be if you relied on 60 Minutes for your information). Monsanto and other primary producers do not normally sell directly to the public. They sell to other companies; wholesalers, manufacturers, exporters, processors. As such they are dealing with hard-nosed and often very savvy purchasing managers and agents. Such professionals ask tough and precise scientific questions about the safety and other characteristics of the materials they purchase. This is especially true of wholesalers, whose employers directly face legal consequences for selling harmful substances.
Another elementary bit of information. Companies cannot "lie", or indeed make utterances of any type. Only people can do that. The fact that you anthropomorphise an abstract legal entity in such a way shows how infantile your delusions are. But even using your words, any company that "lied" to professional purchasers would be dead in a year.
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wrote

Ooh that has the word 'garden' in it, I'll let it slide.

Newsgroup cop says "What the hell does this have to do with gardening?"

Newsgroup cop says "What the hell does this have to do with gardening?"
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wrote

I think the irony of the comment went flying right over your [obligatory derogatory adjective] head.
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On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:05:39 -0400, "Dave Gower"

http://www.sfu.ca/cag/newsletters/nov_2002_newsletter.pdf ..
C restructuring to accommodate the exigencies of 21st century hyper-capital, are many andcomplex. The general orientation of the arguments for our research objectives are based ocontention that the globalizing industrial agricultural model has too many negative environmental, social, cultural, and political consequences to be fixed ‘by the mastebelieve that reliance on the dominant scientific and technical-fix paradigm merely exacerbates contemporary food problems. We are sceptical of the Monsanto public relations voice in MichaPollan’s work The Botany of Desire, who asks the world to, “Trust us”. The increasing consolidation of the global food industry; the massive environmental subsidies accordedmonocultural and ‘clean soil’ industrial agriculture practices; the trends in seed and other form patenting processes; the uncertainty inherent to genetic engineering in food research (let alone the ethos defined by that direction); the increasing disparities in access to food and controover agricultural land across the North and the South divide; compel us to work on alternatives to the global food production system. life-l 3 Hence, the book emerging out of our SSHRC grant, which we are tentatively calling Skyscrapers and Strawbales: The Role of Urban-Rural Linkages in Sustainable Agriculture. This is a collection of works from diverse parts of the Americas and Europe exploring ongoing prodeveloping local food-systems. In some appropriation (or subversion?) of the business-oriented SWOT analysis (streopportunities, weaknesses, and tactics), we focus this work centreon food through the lenses of the barriers, the opportunities, and the strategies for overturning and displacing the food production trends which run counter to community food sustainability prescriptions. For example, the contributions to our book incexperiences that: overcome food access problems via local governance initiatives in Belo Horizonte Brazil; demonstratrole of negotiation in building stronger rural-urban food linkages preserve agricultural production in the peri-urban zones of France the local in Washington State where consumer markets are hundreds of miles from prestablish greater clarity regarding the factors that underlie the consumption of organic agricultural products in Ontario; comprehensively analyze the benefits and costs circumscribing the operations of a CSA in Montreal; and examine state-sponsored pilot projects developing local food sufficiency and ecological agriculture in Germany. The fifteen or so chapters will sthe basis and experience for devising a ‘made-in-Niagara’ regional food system meant to build and strengthen food links between the urban and the rural in this ‘place’. jects in ngths, d lude e the to anoducers; et he geography at its most overt in this project is about tightening the spatial feedback loops in r cial f course, as the geographer in the research group, my aspirations are also replete with the ’ d Argentina; problematize T between the consumer and the producer. This means literally bringing the two closer togetherspace and time and overcoming the myriad of environmental impacts associated with an increasingly long-distance global food system [consider that the average food item on yousupper plate has travelled 1800 kms], while simultaneously trying to deal with the related sodislocation and cohesion issues facing both rural and urban communities in a globalizing environment – sustainable community aspirations. O geographic questions implicit to work on food and society. For example, how do theories ofplace and space intersect with regional food alliance desires? How is the community or ‘localdefined by those advocating for community food security and sustainability? How do we rework our conceptions of region through these sorts of cultural processes? What do local food system hopes mean for working towards social justice, recognizing uneven development dynamics, and for managing global food disparities? Or how does the geographic concept ofthe foodshed and its delineation differ across space – i.e., from thnorthern reaches of British Columbia? No, I don’t have answers to these here, but they arepalatable themes for the geographer’s gristmill, and we hope to work towards some greater conceptual understanding of these geographies through our work as it progresses. e Niagara region, to
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On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 19:05:39 -0400, "Dave Gower"

Here's a good example of how the poison peddlers work.....
Agnet is produced by the Food Safety Network at the University of Guelph and is sponsored by the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food, Plants Program at the University of Guelph, Agricultural Adaptation Council (CanAdapt Program), Canadian Council of Grocery Distributors, ConAgra Foods, Inc., Pioneer Hi-Bred Limited (Canada), Ag-West Biotech, Inc., Monsanto Canada, National Pork Board, Syngenta Seeds, Inc., Canadian Animal Health Institute, Croplife Canada, Syngenta Seeds Canada, Inc., JIFSAN, National Cattlemen's Beef Association, National Food Processors Association, Syngenta Crop Protection, Ontario Corn Producers' Association, DuPont Canada, Inc., Office of Consumer Affairs, Burger King, National Meat Association, Ontario Soybean Growers, UC Davis Biotechnology Program, Consumer Federation of America Foundation, Optibrand, University of Idaho Department of Microbiology, Molecular Biology and Biochemistry, Plant Bioscience Ltd., CanAmera Foods, Hospitality Institute of Technology and Management, Inc., Hartono and Company, and Global Public Affairs.
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Oh, dear, you are dreadfully and terminally naive. I fear there is no hope for you.
And please, don't presume to group me into that group of "most of us". Given a choice, I'd rather be grouped into that group considered by you of subhuman intelligence, which foolishly presumes big chemical companies of considering their bottom lines first and foremost. I delight in the name you will thus choose to label me with.
wrote

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now who is being naive? I can just imagine Steins asking if the products are safe. LOL. As long as they have somebody else to point the product liability finger at they are going to resell anything that makes them a profit. I dont see any corporation sharing their secret internal memos with an outside company. But the corporate CEOs, who represent the company certainly can and do lie for the company. Interestingly, corporations can be sued. http://howstuffworks.lycoszone.com/stock3.htm "A corporation is different, and it is a pretty interesting concept. A corporation is a "virtual person." That is, a corporation is registered with the government, it has a social security number (known as a federal tax ID number), it can own property, it can go to court to sue people, it can be sued and it can make contracts. By definition, a corporation has stock that can be bought and sold, and all of the owners of the corporation hold shares of stock in the corporation to represent their ownership. One incredibly interesting characteristic of this "virtual person" is that it has an indefinite and potentially infinite life span." Now CEO's may come and go, even boards come and go, but since they dont go all at once (well unless they belly up and close their doors) the prevailing mentality of a corporation is propagated ad infinitum, ad nauseum. So Monsanto is not going to turn into a Ben and Jerry's. Ingrid
Such professionals ask tough and precise

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wrote

When 'answers' are of dubious veracity, it common to use whatever information is available assess the veracity of the 'answers'. To say Monsanto is a totally different entity now is ridiculous. If anything, they have retained all the lawyers who know exactly what loopholes in the laws they can exploit. I suppose you think jailing a common criminal results in the rehabilitation of the criminal, when in all likelihood, he has just as much chance of learning new ways to break the law while in jail.

I wonder if some of these same "hard-nosed, savvy purchasing managers" were responsible for the introduction of anti-bacterial soap. I suppose the industry only hires Ph.Ds in chemical engineering to manage their purchasing departments, even it would be so much cheaper to just hire yokel off the street who can point at a random 'scientific' journal and say, "well that says such-and-such, so it must be true", which by the way, will hold up in court. But, at the end of the day, the only thing that really counts is whether are not there are any marks who will buy the product.

Yes, I totally agree. Companies cannot "lie" any more than they can create "products" Only people can do that. If there are any problems, the people operating the factory machinery should be held accountable, not Monsanto, which really doesn't even exist.
-- Salty
And, oh yeah, I did a search back to 1789(!), and no one in rec.gardens has ever asked about the purchasing habits Monsanto's corporate customers. hmm, off-topic or not? I hope no one goes crying to the topic police.
Try not to let the irony or sarcasm in this reply go flying over your head this time.
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