Some of the reasons I don't spray pesticides ...

Page 2 of 3  

escapee wrote:

I never said they didn't grow these resistant fruit.

I think you should expand your horizons and start tasting more varieties of fruit.

I shop occasionally at Whole Foods Market and the markup is much greater than 5%. I see things like a bunch of organic carrots selling for two dollars, while the non-organic bunches are selling for one dollar. These growers are not stupid. If they see the fruit selling for higher prices, they would be remiss, if they didn't ask more for their harvest.

What's with you organic enthusiasts. Do you all believe the world is going to soon end? Pollution from our factories and vehicles is a much much greater threat than the pesticides being used. When we convert all our energy sources to solar, nuclear, etc., than I think we can worry about the pesticides.
Sherwin D.

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

So we're not supposed to take care of what we can, and eliminate toxic chemicals from our soils and foods? No, small market farmers can right now take care of it, and they are. The organic gardener/farmers are making money now, whereas the same can't be said for conventional/chemical using farmers. Plus their produce is higher quality; they aren't catering to the mass-shipping market, but tend to either direct sell or sell locally so they can grow produce that's actually bred to taste good, rather than withstand shipping. And finally, the produce is coming down in price, as more and more farmers enter the market. I welcome and celebrate it, and know that people who think like you are becoming fewer and fewer (thankfully).
http:///www.biodemocracy.org
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Ann wrote:

No, I didn't say that. It's putting organic farming way up there as the way to save the world. The concept is good, but the fanaticism is not called for.

Organic grown produce may have reduced traces of chemicals (that's why I wash all my purchases), but there is nothing about organics that makes the fruit taste any better, or hold up better in shipment. The organic stuff will spoil as quickly as the chemically grown stuff. However, you can change the genetics of a fruit, for example, to hold up better in shipping, like the Red Delicious Apple. Unfortunately, that can reduce the taste of the fruit. Properties like taste and holding ability for shipment are in the genes of the fruit. Organics does not change those! As I mentioned in earlier postings, organics growers are almost forced to select varieties which are inherently disease resistant, to get any results with the lower powered organic preventatives. Unfortunately, these fruits are not the very best tasting varieties. If you pick a particular apple, for example, and grow it organically and also chemically, I cannot see there being any difference in taste or long term storage abilities. I grow a William's Pride Apple which is disease resistant to fungicides, but I still have to spray it with insecticides. It is not a bad tasting apple, but doesn't compare to my other apples, like Honeycrisp or Ashmead Kernel. I will stick with the chemical sprays to grow my excellent tasting apples, until the organic people come up with a spray that can protect all varieties.

I still see double prices for organic grown produce at my local Jewel Food Store.

Yes, but these people have never tasted a really good apple.

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
escapee wrote:

I don't know where you got your information, but it's not correct, I'm afraid. Emile Frison is one of the world's leading banana researchers, and according to Dr. Frison:
www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf [] Bananas are threatened by the rapidly spreading fungus Black Sigatoka that has been undermining banana production for the past three decades. It has reached almost every banana-growing region in the world and typically reduces yield by 30 to 50 percent. Other diseases and pests that cripple yields include a soil fungus, parasitic worms, weevils, and viruses such as the Banana Streak Virus, which lurks inside the banana genome itself. Commercial growers can afford and rely extensively on chemical fungicides, often spraying their crops 50 times per year—the equivalent of spraying nearly once per week, which is about 10 times the average for intensive agriculture in industrialized countries. Chemical inputs account for 27 percent of the production cost of export bananas. Agricultural chemicals used on bananas for diseases and pests have harmed the health of plantation workers and the environment. “If we can devise resistant banana varieties, we could possibly do away with fungicides and pesticides all together,” said Frison. “In addition, resistant strains are essential for small-holder farmers, who cannot afford the expensive chemicals to begin with. When Black Sigatoka strikes, farmers can do little more than watch their plants die. Increased hunger can swiftly follow.” [] www.futureharvest.org/pdf/banana.pdf
EV
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

are very

generally a

afraid. Emile

to Dr. Frison:

that has been

almost every

50 percent.

worms, weevils,

genome itself.

fungicides, often

once per week,

industrialized
of export

have harmed the

with fungicides

strains are essential

begin with. When

plants die.

I've additionally heard the domestic banana really is endangered because its own genetic material has narrowed to a couple strains developed for large size & toughness in shipping & physical apeparance (not so much for flavor) while wild bananas have vanished with loss of habitat. Some worry that eventually corn will will follow for the same reasons. Without careful preservation of a series of wild forms, the selectively bred & genetically altered crops eventually meet a disease that takes them down. Without the original seed stocks which can restore genetic strength, that's the end of a staple crop. At best there'll be massive if temporary crop die-offs equivalent of the Great Potato Famine.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
paghat wrote:

Yes, that's correct. There was an excellent article on it in New Scientist in the fall of 2002 IIRC.
EV

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Provide a REAL citation for that fatuous chemical industry propoganda slogan, the blurting out of which indicates nothing but that you're a hopeless case. You demanded citations from me & got them though obviously you never really wanted them & still could not care any less about the truth. You persist in this kind of merely political myth-making -- still being that suicidal nutcase who no matter how many reasons to live he is given, always has one more excuse why you should even so shoot yourself in the head, taking down as many others as with you as you can.
Your knowledge of the causes of famine is way down there in the zero range with much else you've been mistaken about this week. Get this if you get nothing else:
Chemical dependency leads to environmental degradation leads to famine. Organic farming is sustainable.
I will follow up with my usual complete overview, but if you're capable of learning, all you need is the above two sentences to be much less foolish than you've been up to now.
In some regions starvation has resulted because the best land has been turned over to coffee bean production or sugar cane or some similar crop to be shipped to the west, all land & profits gained by the land belonging to a ruling wealthy minority, & no aerable land is available to peasants. In other places it is due to patterns of drought & cataclysmic climate changes such as the expansion of the Sahara. In others it is due exclusively to warfare or to scorched-earth campaigns. In others it is due to concentrations of populations due to migration to finite areas, resulting from drought & desert expansion or even more commonly from warfare. In the distant past there have been famines caused by dependency on single crops & those single crops became diseased, & there is some worry that this may recur in the future due to agribusiness's reliance on decreasing numbers of species & strains of those species. In India which many years ago undertook an unfortunate transition toward chemical dependency for nationalistic reasons has increased the amount of land that can no longer be farmed at all because toxic salts have built up from continuous use of chemical boosters & pesticides -- this land is being abandoned by rich agriculturalists but it is no longer useful for peasants to farm.
So there are many causes of famine.
Organic farming has never been one of them.
As reported by the Soil Association in SOIL: The Importance & Protection of Living Soil (2001), chemical & biotech dependent crops have been leaching soil to death, & are will lead to famine. They recommend a return, in both Europe & Africa, to organic farming methods which are the only sustainable methods in the long run, besides producing a higher quality of produce in the short run.
Even if SOME crops could be increased with chemical dependency, that issue has no relevance in improverished parts of the globe which cannot afford the chemicals. Whereas improving upon their own traditional methods can increase crop yields 200 to 300% without resorting to chemicals. While chemical fertilizers & pesticides deplete soil over time & kill its essential living microorganisms, improving organic methods increases soil richness & increases microorganism population, hence SUSTAINABLE increases in crop production WITHOUT chemicals.
While the CHEMICAL and BIOTECH (GM) companies have undertaken a world-wide campaign to promote the idea that organic growers in Europe & the USA are "criminal" for turning more & more to organic farming, because they could otherwise be growing much more chemical-dependent crops & send the excess to famine-stricken countries. This of course is completely fatuous since growers in the west can even be paid to grow NOTHING due to overproduction driving costs down. At any hour, this very hour, world hunger would end if all it took was to distribute more food from the west to countries where drought or warfare or peasant lack of access to aerable land has caused starvation. Blaming organic gardening for any of it is on the surface completely loony -- you swallowed it because you already convinced yourself of a lie before someone handed you a greater lie to reinforce your first one.
The reality is that organic farming for orchard crops & many annuyal crops produces the same or more produce than chemical dependent farming, does so more cheaply, in a manner that protects the soil for future crops. Even those annual crops that CAN be increased in yield with chemical dependency deplete soil at such a rapid rate that land is soon depleted; in Brazil the answer to this problem is to take a load of chemicals deeper into the jungle, slash & burn so that nothing of the jungle remains, & start over with a very few years of high-yield crops ending in land that can never be used again. The chemical biotech industrialists expertly trumpet "High Yield Non-Organic Farming" with no underlying science to support what is purely a POLITICAL campaign so that a very few biotech & chemical giants can control the production of food in third-world countries.
In villages where traditional methods are still practiced, yields are low but meet the local needs. When it becomes necessary to buy chemical fertilizers & pesticides or special herbicide-resistant grains, the expectation is not to feed people better but to have a salable excess beyond local need; unfortunately, even if "greed is good" it is not good in this situation. Profitable excess never happens in regions where the main feature to overcome is limited water resources. Even in the fewer cases where profitable short-range profits do occur from momentary high yelds, the soil is rapidly depleted & the short-range gain ends in long-run losses -- & famine. By then the soil may take years to restore if it ever is restored, & the interuption in the use of traditional methods results in extinction of sustainable seed strains, making it difficult to return to the sustainable organic methods.
As oil-based products skyrocket in price, chemical-dependent crops become less & less economically feasible. There are no chemical-dependent farming methods that have ever been shown to increase production in regions with limited water resources, & if the Hopi became non-organic farmers tomorrow, their corn strains would soon become extinct. And indeed, one of Monsanto's great goals is to drive desert-hardy, fertile, & sustainable corn crop strains to extinction, in favor of their own seed alleged to provide super-crops (impossible in desert conditions) which produce crops that are sterile so that no percentage of the seed can be held back for future crops. The purpose is NOT being to feed starving people but to make starving people perpetually dependent on agribusiness for their seed. No cash for the next year's seed, say hello to famine.
The governments of Kenya , Uganda & Tanzsania, in order to fight famine by the best means, have undertaken nations-wide campaigns to re-establish & upgrade sustainable organic farming methods. The chemical companies' successful intrusions to do away with organic farming practices have been a direct contributor to the destruction of croplands.
The BETTER system would have been, & still is, to share advances in organic methods that may improve on localized primitive agricultural systems without doing away with those traditional systems. Just one example: the use of compost toilets can make an entire village a source of organic fertilizer, breaking the cycle of dependency on chemical fertilizer to prop up depleted soils; the use of the organic compost will reverse soil depletion caused by the use of chemicals, thus resulting in better more sustainable produce. Every problem has an organic answer that in every case does indeed turn out to be the superior choice.
-paghat the ratgirl
some random quotes from others:
"If you apply organic principles and you take care of the soil in the proper way, you can very much increase your yield. This is the most sustainable way, not only for the export market but also for food security." [Thomas Cierpka, executive director, International Federation of Organic Agricultural Movements]
"Contrary to what its opponents sometimes suggest, organic farming is not in the least anti-science and looks to biological science particularly for assistance in dealing with fertility, crop pests and diseases. Although research institutes in Europe have done much pioneering work and several new centres are coming on-stream, Cuba probably has more scientific resources employed in organic farming research than the rest of the world combined. It had to - otherwise there could have been famine back in the '90s when it was largely abandoned by its major supporter, the USSR." [Grace Maher, Agriculture & the World Summit on Sustainable Development, Sept 2002]
"Output levels in organic farming can match and exceed that of chemical farming - eg see Teagasc, Johnstown Castle, recent report. And where they don't, decent research funds would undoubtedly raise productivity. There are many more studies - I'd be glad to cite them if requested. But, at a practical level, take even my own humble case; I grow garlic, organically, about 40,000 plants, and get yields over 100% more than the European commercial average. Furthermore, a study I made on potatoes shows, remarkably, that modern agriculture still hasn't equalled the output levels achieved in Ireland before the 1840's Famine. .... Chemical farming has left us a legacy of a degraded environment, mountains and lakes of surplus produce, factory farming of animals, decreased employment and profits in agriculture, and, of course, food contamination. Directly add the costs of these effects to our conventional food (which we pay for indirectly anyway) and we'll see the real price of food. The men in white coats are scraping the bottom of the barrel for arguments to bolster a losing case. Again, a pro-GM scientist (Conference on GM food, Skibbereen, Feb '99 ) said - almost with a giggle! -  that, 'organic potatoes are poisonous and you organic farmers here should throw them all away.'" [Jim O'Connor, Ireland, from a widely circulated letter in the Irish Times]
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
paghat wrote:

Oh, so people in Africa are not starving and they are not having massive crop failures from weather and insects. Programs like National Geographic must be giving me some of that propaganda. Shame of them.

Your so-called documentation is worthless.

I prefer that you shoot yourself in the mouth.

Talk about propaganda!

I don't think I can learn anything from you. All you know is how to insult people.

You did not mention crop destruction by swarms of locusts, etc.

I'm not blaming organic gardening for anything other than a naive concept that it can completely control our pest problems.

Yes, its all a conspiracy to get us.

I see the opposite. In my garden centers, the organic stuff costs way more than the chemical stuff.

There's the same conspiracy theory again.

You accuse me of picking up e-colli laden fruit from under my trees, but you
are pushing the recycling of human waste, which in many cases contains a wealth of harmful bacteria, and I wouldn't trust composting to kill it all.

Why did they have a famine? Wasn't it because of some blight that wiped out their crops? Maybe the right chemicals would have saved more of their potatoes.

Organic farming and gardening is a fine goal to aim for, but there is still a need for chemicals to keep pests under control. Some places can rely more heavily on organic methods, but other's need the chemicals. In my case, a high priority for me is the very best tasting fruit with the least damage. I don't think I can go completely organic in today's world. If and when the organics are developed to do the job, I am ready to convert over. I don't like spraying these chemicals, but for now, there are no good alternatives.

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

And you pursue your chemical kick like a religion. I'd rather follow the organic cult. As a matter of fact, I do.
--
Ann, Gardening in zone 6a
Just south of Boston, MA
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net says...

<another long rant snipped> Paghat, have you ever written a brief response? Oh yes, I did see one once. Of course you quoted several pages before that response, so the effect was the same.
Now a report on the yellowjackets. I actually called Terminex. The responder donned his protective clothing, located the nest, "froze" it with about a 5 second burst of something, took down the nest and carted it away. He informed me that the yellowjackets would be angry the rest of the day and would die overnight. Apparently they need the nest.
I went out this morning and there wasn't a yellowjacket to be found anywhere in the vicinity.
So - problem solved, no massive pesticide application, and you can kill them without waiting for evening.
Seems to me you doth protest too much :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net says...

Wow! I stand corrected. God has spoken!
I should have known better than to argue with a fanatic.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:41:22 -0700, paghat wrote:

'much snipping of stuff, to allow for a short response posting...
I must agree with the point of Paggers posting, since I have left my garden to the "critters" I have noticed that it is much happier, less bug damage and no issues with me getting stung, since I keep my attitude towards my friends in that mindset, and so the yellowjackets that are constantly in my garden gobbling up those bugs that I don't want, don't even notice me other than to stay out from under my feet ;^)
I really do feel that we spend way too much time trying to stop what our EarthMother has given to us from doing us good, and instead seem to want to destroy it, sigh...
FWIW Paghat try a more positive/encouraging reply to others postings, and you may find them more willing to listen to you...
Peace
Douglas Cole human resident MotherEarth
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
sherwindu wrote:

Hang on there! I'm actually proactive in a natural kind of way. I'm new to fruit trees, but have been gardening organically for more decades than I care to admit. My garden usually does quite well with a minimum of the most benign possible intervention.
My plums are not great this year, true, but most other things have done fabulously well, despite, or because of, the cool, wet growing season. Why not the plums? If I can figure out what went wrong, I can take measures to try to prevent it from happening again.
Reading everyone's suggestions pointed up causes that weren't uppermost in my mind. For instance, Paghat mentioned nearby farms. I don't think they're close enough, but it reminded me that there's is a huge, overgrown vacant lot 100 yards away that was partially bulldozed when a structure was removed. The property has some apple and crabapple trees in horrible condition, as well as all kinds of berry brambles in bad shape. The destruction of their habitat might have lead to some of the bad bugs migrating.
There's an old Italian guy just up the road who had a stroke about 5 years ago and can't maintain his fruit trees. His fruit probably rots on the ground.
Both of these factors could explain some of the problem.
The weather has also affected the insects. Populations vary with every growing season. Every year I try to spot as many of the bugs as I can. This year there have been more sawflies, plant bugs, plum and black vine curculios, pear slugs, a few types of hoppers, and ladybugs than usual. I've seen fewer varieties of butterflies, and fewer individuals ... even cabbage whites, but there are a fair number of moths of various kinds ... including fruit moths, and Iris borers. I guess it's my own fault for having so many night flowering plants. ;-) Other insect numbers and diversity seem to be about normal for here, though maturity cycles are delayed for most. I look for population patterns.
My attitude is that that if I maintain good gardening practises, and take the necessary precautions, next year will be better for the plum. There are things that I can do, but other things are beyond my control.
I'm within spitting distance of a golf course, and they spray gawd knows what. Several of my neighbours hire companies to spray toxics so that their lawns will be weed and grub free. Luckily, some others are too cheap, and some have even come around to a more organic approach after seeing my garden.
I keep a photo journal of the garden every year. I'll be putting August up in the next few days, but here's July: http://home.ca.inter.net/~stevedor/EGarden3.html
Happy gardening,
EV

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
sherwindu wrote:

I didn't spray the cherry tree at all this year and the insect and brown rot loss wasn't that bad -- less than what I lost to the robins.
I live in Southern Minnesota (there's an oxymoron for ya) and the curcullios and apple maggots are awful here. I don't spray anything until after 100% petal drop out of respect for the bees; they're having a tough time here with the mites. I didn't spray any fungicides this year and it shows, but a little scab on the apples doesn't hurt anything. I stopped spraying in July (out of laziness) and was afraid the apple maggots would ruin everything, but diligent clean-up of fallen apples last year seems to have paid off. In the past, some years even with spraying the apple maggots have totally destroyed my crop.
I would love to get to where insects and disease could be controlled with just a dormant oil spray before the buds break, followed by Integrated Pest Management (with a sprayer of malathion standing by, unused, just in case of emergency.) I don't know if IPM works here or if the insect load is just too high. I think proper orchard hygiene, traps, and minimal spraying whenever the traps show a high insect population might be more effective and more ecological than prophylactic spraying every 10 days and every time it rains.
Bob
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
zxcvbob wrote:

Bob,
Try telling that to Rat Lady, who thinks everyone has the same environment as her Washington home. I believe Apple Maggots, for one, are predominantly found East of the Rocky Mountains.

Did you use an effective spray like Imidan? That one really works on apple maggots, but it is not available to the home orchardist anymore. If you can locate a supply of it (farmers can still get it), give it a try.

My experience is that by waiting too long between spraying, say over one month, problems develop. Most years I average about every three weeks. I missed one apple tree( Cox's Orange Pippen) on one of my three week cycles, and the tree is now showing signs of attack. The leaves are turning prematurely yellow with brown spots, and the fruit is being attacked. It may be a coincidence, but I suspect the pests found a window of opportunity.
Sherwin D.

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
sherwindu wrote:

I used a mixture of malathion EC and methoxyclor WP (I'll add captan or maneb in the spring next year). If I had seen actual signs of apple maggots, I would have sprayed diazanon in July and then switched back to malathion in August, and stop spraying in mid-August. I have a quart of diazanon 50 EC.

Best regards, Bob
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
says...

Actually, no. I live in Spokane WA and we're in an apple maggot control area "do not transport home-grown fruit".
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net says...

<snip of long tirade>
I knew I'd get at least one anti-pesticide fanatic :-).
I'm more concerned about the antibiotic-resistant bacteria we're breeding with all the "antibacterial" products on the market today than I am about killing a few thousand insects - there's no shortage.
And industry spews pesticides into the air constantly - unfortunately the pests are us.
IOW, there's a lot more important things to worry about - and I didn't even mention politics :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Medical issues unrelated to gardening are important but less important for On Topic discussion here.
As for no shortage of beneficial insects, you need to update your knowledge on the pollinator population in North America, the alarming decline of both wild & domestic bee populations, the extinctions of butterflies, to the point that in large wild expanses native plants are having trouble fruiting & reproducing, while in some suburban settings, due mainly to pesticides, pollinators are frequently too few for garden fruit production to occur at all.
And it turns out the the only insects for which there is not now nor ever will be a shortage are the harmful ones that are all that remain when predator insects & pollinator insects are eradicated. And it just never had to happen, since all the field studies show that correct organic principles have better outcomes for gardening & fruit production.
Though as you imply, it is also true the coming world-wide tuberculosis outbreak is going to make any concern about deadly agricultural practices, extinction of all wildlife & destruction of forests & waterways, & unhealthy gardens, all appear rather inconsequentle if most of us start coughing up bits of our lungs & gasping to death. Then again, it was our misguided belief that we could pick & choose what on the planet was permitted to continue to exist that pretty much guarantees we won't exist.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
WAIT!!!! here's yet another anti-pesticide fantatic!!! (although, personally, i'd rather be called totally organic and natural, thank you veddy much.
against the advice of all my horticulture (NO!! that does NOT mean the raising of hortas) teachers, i ran a terrific herbal and tropical fruit greenhouse in oregon for almost 6 years. i used the yellow stickies, ladybeetles, preying manti, and i even brought in newts to eat "bad" buggies. i never ever once used any chemical spray, including those which are called "natural" like pyrethrin. to me, ANY substance which can kill 6-leggers, will also kill 2 and 4 leggers!!!
anti-pesticide fantatics of the garden world.....LET US JOIN TOGETHER!!! (and pace the place near madison square garden) ;o)

Add pictures here
βœ–
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.