Some people have gardens rather than a few plants.
Anyone who lives
Not true, you haven't thought this through. There are places where annual rainfall is quite high but very seasonal or very erratic. You need to save when it rains to water when it doesn't.
This entire concept of collecting rain water in huge tanks
What if there is no hose bib connected to mains supply? What if due to drought watering gardens from the mains supply is forbidden?
Consider the cost and time of replacing a garden that has turned to dust compared the cost of a watering system. Of course if you live in an area where it hardly rains you would have to consider if you can grow a "normal" garden at all before installing water tanks that will never fill.
When there's a need for large
What if you are not in an area that has subterranean water?
No one is going to maintain a lawn in say Las Vegas with
Watering lawns will indeed require huge investment in a desert, I for one would not attempt to grow a lawn in a desert.
That's true of most any area, no one can accurately predict weather. But no matter how much it rains in any one period if it hasn't rained in awhile adn likely won't rain anytime soon then you couldn't collect water at the rate it needs to used for any but container gardening. Watering the ground where it rains sporadically will literally be fruitless.
Now I know you're not serious.
Nor should one attempt to grow a garden in a dessert, not unless they have a constant piped in water source... like the Colorado River.
With all your theoretical "what-ifs" you ought not to be gardening period.
"Val" wrote in message news:gn9qbp$2h6u$ snipped-for-privacy@adenine.netfront.net...
You can prove your theory?
Certainly you can't install an obviously damaged tank but you certainly can install one that's been properly repaired, the same as one can drive down the interstate on a patched tire. Fiberglass vessels are of laid up constructrion, there is no way to tell whether they're patched... the entire thing brand new is one big patch upon patch upon patch. And if a fiberglass septic tank is damaged so badly that it can't be patched well enough to use as a septic tank than it can't be patched well enough to hold liquid for any purpose. And most all fiberglass septic tanks are designed to rely on the rigidity afforded by being buried totally or in part, brand new they're not safe to use totally above ground... they also need to be buried to protect them from UV and freezing. Typically fiberglass septic tanks don't get buried below grade, preferably a berm is built, of specified materials, that covers and supports the tank. Just two years ago my neighbor across the road built a new house and tried every which way to get around paying the $40,000 it cost to place the tank and leach field etc. into a berm above grade. Where I live the codes have recently become very strict regarding septic system installation but I've never seen any code that says a fiberglass tank cannot have been repaired before installation or after installation. In many instances cesspools are installed, laid up block cesspools are still permited in some areas... many folks still install drywells, you can still buy a simple plastic dry well at Home Depot or make one of a 55 gallon steel drum, or whatever. You can't make a blanket statement saying what the laws are regarding septic systems, every jurisdiction has different codes, and every installation is different... every municipality has different building codes (some have none) so don't go making stuff up.
Where I live there are lots of wetlands, most everyone including moi has more than a few acres of wetlands, talk about strict, now we're taking Federal laws. I never saw a word about repaired fiberglass septic tanks and I happen to keep up on that stuff. I love living with wet lands, not five minutes ago I looked out my window and this is why:
Not if you are running greenhouses and would have to have a retention pond, if you did not store the water. Many malls now have retention ponds and use the water from it to water the grounds of the mall. The rain runs off the parking lots and into the pond - there is pump in the pond to move the water into a separate watering system to water the grounds.
I am sure in the area you live and work in you are absolutely correct - this is silly, and that you may even have been in enough other areas to have built a general rule for why you think this is silly however...
In some areas there are now code requirements that prohibit a hose bib from being installed on new construction. I just reviewed the new code for one community in Australia, it was in that code. I have looked at codes for Morocco and for other cities and seen similar restrictions. The drier the area, the more likely the restriction is either in place or being considered. Even Los Angeles and Los Vegas have considered this in their building codes. So far they have not put it in - but if water stays tight - they may be forced to if only to control swimming pool top ups and yard watering.
There are parts of the world, where cisterns for rain water are very common - in many cases a single home might have 1000 or more gallons - it is not so much for watering as for living - I have been to houses in Arizona with cisterns and tanks connected to the whole roof area - to capture as much rain water as possible.
I have a good friend in Vegas who runs a hobby green house (mostly a shade house, there is little need for glass most of the year) and he and his wife has an extensive rain collection system - every time it rains an inch - they put about 2500 gallons in their tanks - this is not only roof run off, but run off from the road behind and above their house...surprising how much water can be collected off a hard surface.
The rules in the US and Canada - even in Europe are not the rules the world over - I have done work in more than 40 countries and am constantly surprised by things that I would take for granted at home, that I can not elsewhere - I am a pretty good traveler and read the travel customs, but I have learned they only scratch the surface of the things you need to know to work on conservation and energy efficiency in most countries.
Anustrailia, Morocco... you're not serious... they don't even have indoor plumbing. I've been to Morocco, they relieve themselves directly into the street... the raw effluence runs downhill to who knows where. And Morrocans never heard of TP, and they go from birth to grave never having bathed either.
I did email one company, but they didn't have any unsaleable ones for low price.
Maybe after Pres.Day I will call/email a few more. Or maybe cheaper just to get a few more trash barrels. Or maybe the whole thing will be moot because we won't get any more rain. But some more coming up next week; yay!
I don't know when you were in Morocco and where -- the cities or the boonies -- Arab country or Berber?
I just came back from a two-week trip based around the Four Imperial Cities, plus some others. Long bus rides in between, broken by numerous interesting stops.
Sorry to disappoint you, but I never saw anyone relieve themselves in the streets. Although our tour stayed in pretty nice -- some very nice -- hotels, even the little curio shops or restaurants/coffee shops along the highways had clean restrooms, with soap and TP and all the usual amenities.
I speak French, so interacted with local people freely. Nobody stank from not bathing.
You certainly have a, shall we say, one-sided view of the country. Any more exact details to back up your contentions? Time? Place? Extent of contact?
1000 gallons US is about 4000l. Say you have a modest vege garden, 20 square metres (22sq yards) which would provide quite a lot for a family, such a tank will allow you put on 25mm (an inch) once a week for 8 weeks which keeps your veges growing. Or you could water say 5 fruit trees for 16 weeks and keep them alive until it rains. In my original post where 1000 gallons was mentioned I actually said 1000 plus and suggested a ground tank (dam) might be better. Clearly the sums are different for each garden but this doesn't mean you can generalise and say it is fruitless or that it cannot be done.
Perfectly serious. Not every house in the world has mains water. I don't. You jumped at the "no hose bib" part and didn't notice the "connected to mains supply" part. This was not intended to trap you at all but does illustrate your thinking is a little narrow.
I am not talking about gardening in a desert but a place with erratic or seasonal rainfall where a water tank or dam may be a great help. In a desert I would give up on veges and fruit trees (as well as lawn) unless I had a source of water not rainfall dependent.
I am using "what if" to try to get you to think about situations that you haven't thought about. To suggest what I am describing is unreal or irrelevant only shows you are making unwarranted assumptions. You should stop being so parochial and not assume that the whole world is like your back yard. This is an international forum.
I haven't been to Morocco but we do actual have indoor plumbing in Australia, at least since grandpa fell down the pit and grandma couldn't pull him out without getting the tractor.
But don't knock the thunder box, some people used to have two-holers or even more seats. It allows for converstion and somebody to hand you the catalogue the travelling salesman leaves when you cannot reach it. Did you know that was the reason that people prefered matt paper and glossy printed catalogues didn't really take off?
A great topic! I am very dependent on rain water. My well water is too hard, the soft water still not good for vegi gardens (Ok for flowers) and the R.O. drinking water is way to expensive for a my 70 x 100 ft vegi garden plus the almost same size area flower garden around the house. A 1000 gallon tank would work out great for the August dry spells. Currently I use 5 - 80 gallon rain barrels, just not enough for those temporary days in Michigan.
No way will 1000 gallons water 14,000 sq ft of garden, and certainly not during dry spells when the ground will suck up water like a new sponge... and during hot dry spells how will that 1000 gallon vat get filled before you need to do it all over again two days later? And then you'll need to hump all that water to where you need it, not so simple a task. Even if you have a natural source (pond/stream) it's not so easy to bring water to the plants. I happen to have a good sized deep pond on my property fed by a natural spring but it's some 1,200 feet from my vegetable garden and 1,400 feet from the plantings around my house... the pond is down hill and there's no electric there, so even if I wanted to transfer water to a small holding tank there really is no practical way other than scoop/schlep/pour... early on I tried that hauling 55 gallon drums in a cart with my tractor, never again. Fortunately I decided to place my vegetable garden alongside a small stream, which naturally keeps the ground in my garden just moist enough during the hottest driest times.
My pond would supply plenty of water but is much too far:
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've got a decent sized stream too, but also much too far to schlep or pump:
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water right along side my garden, much better than schlepping:
Nice yard, almost like mine. You must have a nice $6,000 lawn mower and brush hog for the tractor also. My lawn mower is worth more than my truck. Like me, lots of land - small home?
I would only water the vegi garden 7,000 sq ft with the rain water with a pump hooked up the the 1000 gal tank. I could possibly get a bigger tank. During the spring, it rains hard enough to fill up my 5 rain barrels in 30 minutes or less, so a large tank would be fine. The flowers can get the soft line or just suffer. I have a pond also, 250 x
250 ft and 20 ft deep in the center. Mine is over 2,000 feet away, I too tried the 55 gallon drums - what a pain the ***, I gave up also. The vegi garden is close to my home for hoses to reach about 150ft with enough pressure to do the job. Since the dry season is only about a month, I have thought about getting an outside portable R.O. system for the outside line. I have seen one for $400 + filter cost, but wonder on hard it is on the well.
In the past I have used the soft line, but the plants just do not grow as well as the rain barrels. The hard line the plants do not grow well at all.
Makes no sense to pour RO filtered water on the ground, that undoes any filtering... and even a commercial RO at best can produce like 20 gallons of filtered water per 24 hours, which will produce some 80 gallons of grey water. The typical home owner RO produces like 3 gallons of filtered water per 24 hours, with about 10 gallons of grey water.
Of course it makes no sense to use softened water to irrigate crops either, for pretty much the same reasons, pouring softened water on the ground unsoftens it.
I honestly do not understand what you're saying about not using your well water to water crops in the ground... didn't that water just come straight from the same ground?
Whoopee we are back on topic BTW! Rainwater is as soft as you can get.
Do your sums first on collection, storage and distribution. Poly tanks are more cost effective (gallons per dollar) when larger (aroung here 23000l to
36000l are popular for house tanks) especially when you add the capital cost of a small pump (and polypipe reticulation system if required). You can do the installation yourself as it is low pressure but remember to protect polypipe by buying or running on/under fences and to clamp bayonet joints.
If trying to fill it from existing roof plumbing consider that on a large roof the gutters don't often flow to a single down pipe, some may run the wrong way and have to be changed. Too few down pipes and the gutter will overflow in a heavy shower wasting water and possibly causing damage. Sheds and other outbuildings can be profitably employed too depending on location.
Unfortunately, our tour only drove through the High Atlas, stopping en route at little shops/cafes. What vistas! What jagged peaks and steep valleys! Our excellent guide explained that the French put through the first road over the High Atlas, for political reasons -- to be able to control the tough, independent Berbers. Designed by French engineers, but built by local labor.
I would LOVE to go back with a car and a friend to wander around the mountains; see more scenery; have more contact with the Berbers. I have since done a lot of reading, notably "The Conquest of Morocco", which told about the endless battles between the Arabs and the Berbers, and between the French and everybody else, with the Germans and British trying to get in on the act.
Sigh - so many places...so little time...not to mention $$.
I have the same situation with my river. My solution is a petrol pump at the bottom and a 10000l (2500gal US) header tank at the top with a buried feeder line in between. You may see this as expensive but I designed it into the cost of house and garden from the start. Without it I would see thousands of dollars and thousands of hours of time blow away in a dry spell. It was that or no garden except for hardy native trees and shrubs, and a high attrition rate during establishment.
If you are wondering about my discussion of rainwater filling tanks when I have access to a river it's because the river stops in dry periods and is not recommended for drinking. I have a 45,000 litre (11,000US gal) drinking water system. And a small dam of 2.3 Ml (550,000 US gal) for backup if all else fails. The dam collected about 200,000 gal in a day this week.
You live in a very different world. My prvious last useful rain was 2 months ago, searing winds and 30-40C (112F) days since then. If I didn't water during that time 50 fruit trees and the whole vege and ornamental gardens would be stone dead. In the last week I got 233mm (9inches) of rain. I hope the lurkers take this in and understand the different origins of our points of view.
Is that after rain or does it run like that all the time?
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