Salt water damage to azaleas

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Clearly you didn't bother to look up the maps.
Janet.
Janet
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You are very vague about what you call near the sea, and very inaccurate in your estimates. To be more precise:
RBG of Edinburgh, 1.5 miles from the firth of Forth, not very close. Glendoick Gardens, 1.8 miles from the firth of Tay, even further. Branklyn Garden, 3 miles from the firth of Tay, much further. Invereww Gardens, 100 meters from Loch Ewe, close. Arduaine Gardens, borders the Sound of Jura at one point, but no rhodies there, very close. Younger Botanic Garden (Benmore), 2 miles from Holy Loch, not the least bit close. Crarae Gardens, 1000 feet from Loch Fyne, not very close. Brodick Castle & Gardens runs down to about 100 meters from the firth of Clyde, quite close.

None are at sea level or they would disappear at the highest tides. Inverewe Gardens is the most exposed to the sea. Arduaine Gardens in on a 239 ft. high slope of An Cnap overlooking the Sound of Jura seimi-sheltered to the west by the 300 ft. tall Luing and Garvellachs. The RBGE has an elevation of 134 meters. Younter Botanic Garden at Benmore features a 450 foot high view point. Brodick Castle & Gardens is situated on a sheltered plateau above the firth of Clyde, but the gardens extend down near the highway along the shore.
And Arduaine Gardens is not very near any place, but it is 16 mi. west of Inveraray (43 mi. by road) & 20 mi. south of Oban, so Inveraray is closest to Inveraray (not Inverary) if you look at a map.

How can areas with 60 to 90 inches of annual rainfall be salt laden?!?!?!
Inverewe Gardens, main rainfall 64 in. Arduaine Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in. Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore, mean rainfall 90 in. Crarae Gardens, mean rainfall 60 in. Brodick Castle & Gardens, mean rainfall 80 in.

Every one of these gardens has some protection from the prevailing westerly winds:
The RBGE is 1.5 miles inland and 134 m. high and nestled amongst large trees. Glendoick Gardens is 1.8 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees. Branklyn Garden is 3 miles inland and nestled amongst large trees. Inverewe Gardens (NT) the rhododendrons and azaleas are grown amongst large trees in areas naturally sheltered behind "wind- and salt-barriers" of Griselinia littoralis and other plants about 100 m from the Southern tip of Loch Ewe where it is nestled. Arduaine Gardens is nestled amongst large trees near the Sound of Jura but is elevated and slightly shelterd from the westerly winds by the 300 ft tall Luing and Garvellachs. Younger Botanic Gardens at Benmore is 2 miles from the sea and nestled amongst large trees. It is elevated and has much protection to the west. Crarae Gardens is protected from the westerly winds on the east side of a hillside nestled amongst large trees and is situated about 1000 feet from Loch Fyne. Brodick Castle & Gardens is protected from the westerly winds by the 3,866 foot tall Goatfell.

Wow, such an unfriendly accusation.
PS It is Inveraray that is in Argyll.
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To be more precise:
Here's an example of your "precision":

You don't seem to know which, do you? Here's a picture; the garden is below the castle and adjoins the sea
http://www.arransites.co.uk/images/bro_castle2.jpg
The "highway", is a narrow road, immediately adjoining the sea. It's just wide enough for two vehicles to pass each other.The oldest and most famous rhododendron area called the Planthunter's Walk, is at the bottom of the garden alongside the road from which it's separated by a metal rail. last year we spent weeks cutting year back rhododendrons overhanging that rail and obstructing the narrow road. On the other side of the narrow road, literally, is the sea. Salt water, tidal, with seals, the occasional whale, shark, submarine etc.

Very precise; but unfortunately, meaningless.

The rain, and wind, come from 300 miles of Atlantic ocean and are heavily salt-laden.

Wrong. Goatfell is 2866 ft tall and lies directly north of the castle and gardens; so does not protect them from the prevailing wind, which is from the south-west.
Because Brodick Castle is so exposed to the wind, it's the site of weather station for the Meteorological Office.
Janet
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Next you'll be asserting water can be lit on fire! Salt is NOT evaporated into clouds & precipitation NEVER salinizes soils. Scotland is almost as good as the Pacific Northwest for rhodies because they require acidic soils & areas of heavy rainfall wash salts OUT of the soil which results in acidity. In LOW-preciptation regions soils become saline. And rhododendrons will no longer grow.
And also as in the Pacific Northwest rhodies can be grown just about anywhere in Scotland EXCEPT along salty shores or saltmarshes. Your insistance to the contrary only works if the fairies are busily trumping science with their lovely magic spells. So you really might as well be repeatedly posting personal testimonies on how you can too set fire to H20.
In Scotland saline garden soils are caused by immediate proximity to shores or lochs, from irrigation gotten from brackish groundwater of the lochs, & from chemicalized agricultural methods. If you can cite something factual & scientific as evidence that the Atlantic ocean leaps up & jumps 300 miles inland, cite that wondrous evidence that rainfall occurs differently in Scotland than in any other place on Earth.
But please, no more of these fairytales about your allegedly busy life spent in all the gardens of scotland where every raincloud brings an imaginary salty deluge that delights those fairy-rhododendrons magically grown as barriers against the sea. I'm beginning to suspect you never leave the house at all. The depth of your current devotion to a bunch of nonsense really should be beneath you.
-paghat the ratgirl
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from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:

Wrong.
http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/environment/salinity/intro/salinity_intro.htm#salt%20source
I haven't said Scottish soil is saline. It clearly isn't because it's fertile. However, plants (and everything else) are constantly salted-upon, because of weather conditions here. Because of the high rainfall, salt doesn't accumulate to a harmful degree as it does in dry climates like Australia's; but seasalt rain does contribute to our acid-rain problems.
Scotland is almost as

I haven't claimed the soil is saline. The original post to which I replied, said that ericaceous plants do not grow beside the sea. They do, here.

Wrong. There are many parts of Scotland where they can't grow. They do grow along the west coast shore. Perhaps your personal understanding of "shore" is limited; not all shores and seabords are sand beach or saltmarsh.

What saline soils? You clearly know nothing of gardening, irrigation or agriculture in Scotland.
If you can cite something

No part of Scotland is more than 40 miles from the sea. (There is no "300 miles inland", anywhere in Britain.). Salt blows in, on wind and rain, during storms.

That fairy tale is your own. Look up the websites in my post to Stephen, he has misled you.
Janet.
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Janet Baraclough wrote:

http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/environment/salinity/intro/salinity_intro.htm#salt%20source
If what you got out of that page is that salt can be evaporated into the clouds, and that rain in coastal areas contains salt, then we can clearly see how little you understand about even the most simple science.
The bottom line is rhodies will not grow in a saline environment, no matter how much you want to argue with the experts. And the gardens you are using as proof that the experts are wrong all work hard to protect their rhodies from the saline that could otherwise easily create problems.
You can stop trying to be right. You can stop trying to prove that accepted science is wrong. Every time you post, you demonstrate how little you know, and how difficult of a time you have dealing with being wrong. Save us all the pain of watching you dig yourself deeper and deeper into your pit of humiliation. Stop now, because you obviously don't have the temperament to deal with any further embarrassment.
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Warren, you're not as informed as you think you are. http://landresources.montana.edu/LRES355/PDF/Lectures/LRES355_Topic%20B2_Part1_Solution_Chemistry_Web.pdf
According to the site above, from University of Montana, the composition of rainfall is nearly identical to seawater with some additional molecules picked up in the atmosphere. Furthermore, rainfall is NEVER simple H20 - because it also picks up many gases that are present in the atmosphere and transports them. However, more pertinent to the ongoing argument is the fact that strong winds (as in hurricane or near-hurricane force winds) which Scotland is subject to every year,send salt spray MILES inland - not a few feet, or even a few hundred feet. This can be verified in any google search. I think that the issue has been clouded by all this talk about what hits the leaves of the plants. It is clear that the initial post had to do with what happened at the ROOTS of the plants in question. It is VERY evident that rhododendrons cannot have their roots soaked in salt water that sits on them. Constant movement of water through the root zone will wash the salts through them or out of them - but it has to be water that is relatively low in salts, and the plants have to have excellent drainage. A plant sitting in a low spot with salt water swirling around its base is a goner - no question. A plant on a hillside hit with a strong blast of very salty water but subsequently flushed with plenty of water that moves through and out of the root zone will probably be fine. Janet is not claiming that Scottish rhododendrons are living in salt marshes. What she IS claiming is that they live in rather close proximity to the sea in rather salty environments in Scotland - albeit in regions of very high rainfall.

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A further elaboration of the theme of the chemical composition of rainfall: "What is a chemical salt recipe for 'typical' rainwater?
Rainwater gets its compositions largely by dissolving particulate materials in the atmosphere (upper troposhere) when droplets of water nucleate on atmospheric particulates, and secondarily by dissolving gasses from the atmosphere. Rainwater compositions vary geographically.
In open ocean and coastal areas they have a salt content essentially like that of sea water (same ionic proportions but much more dilute) plus CO2 as bicarbonate anion (acidic pH).
Terrestrial rain compositions vary siginificantly from place to place because the regional geology can greatly affect the types of particulates that get added to the atmosphere. Likewise, sources of gaesous acids (SO3, NO2) and bases (NH3) vary as a function of biome factors and anthopogenic land use practices. Each of these gasses can be added in varying proportions from natural and non natural input sources (non-natural sources of SO3 and NO2 far outweigh natural ones). Particulate load to the atmosphere can also be greatly affected by human activities. Finally, local climate (especially the amount of precipitation in one area compared to another) will affect the solute concentrations in terrestrial rainwaters. The result is highly variable compositions, so there isn't one simple formula. If you want to read up a bit on this and see data for rainwater from many different locales globally, I suggest the book "Global Environment: water air and geochemical cycles" by Berner and Berner (Prentice-Hall, 1996) or a similar text "

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presley wrote:

Here in the PNW our rain comes in off the Pacific Ocean and it is not the least bit salty.
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You are misunderstanding the content of the site. Warren seemed to be pretending that there is no saline content of rainfall whatsoever - that is patently false. There are scientists who measure these things very carefully, and they have weighed in on the matter in the sites below and elsewhere. But buried in the same site are the words "SAME IONIC PROPORTIONS BUT MUCH MORE DILUTE". There is a great deal of salt in many aquifers, but the water is potable - because it is more DILUTE than seawater. As someone from FAR FAR inland, I can smell the salt in the air long before I'm in sight of the ocean - because salt is coming in on the ocean breeze. Does this mean it is coming in in quantities sufficient to kill vegetation? No. Honestly, there are days I think reading comprehension should be a prerequisite for internet participation.

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Salt is odorless. You are smelling poop, decay, & acetate.
-paggers
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Let's see now: 1) People drink rain water, especially on ocean islands where there is no other fresh water, are very healthy.
2) People who drink sea water die.
and you claim that they are the same. I hope you don't try to drink sea water.
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The methods by which it can be assessed that rainwater is evaporative from the sea measured for it's isotopic signature & ionic proportionality does not mean rainfall that is the "same" as the sea for salt content. When by mass ratio it can be proven that sodium & chloride ions in groundwater are "the same as seawater" this means whatever the salt load (whether barely detectible or extremely great) originated in the ocean vs originating in mineral dissolution or man-caused pollutants. It does NOT mean the groundwater or the rainfall is saltwater. It just doesn't mean that. As sensible to believe being that signatures & proportionality "the same as seawater" means rainfall is teaming with plankton & jellyfish.
Salinity in soil DECREASES in areas of highest rainfall. If rain were salty the opposite would be true, & much of the world would drop dead because rainwater would be unfit to drink.
Rainfall even lowers the salinity in tidal areas of the ocean itself. In the Ariake Sea for a studied example, salinity for most of the year is a fairly constant 25-26%. During the rainy monsoon season salinity drops to 15% [H. Koike, University of Tokkyo Bulletin 18, 1980]. So too mangrove swamps become decreasingly salinized when deluted during rainy seasons. If the "sameness" of rainwater & seawater was defined by their salt content, tidal environments would not have lowered salinity during heavy rainfall, & the land surface would become so salinized, within a year or two the earth would no longer be habitable my man.
What sodium does find its way into rainfall is generally assumed to be of ocean origin. It is such an inconsequential component that rainfall is NEVER given as one of the causes of inland salinization.
It's beyond comprehension that even one person really believes rainfall has the same salt content as the sea. Such belief is explicable only if scientific knowledge, ability to reason, or even the ability to draw personal conclusions after opening one's mouth in a rainstorm, are fast slipping away from an increasingly imbecilic population.
And so the thread gets increasingly stupid from assertions that rhododendrons are planted as salt air windbreaks, that the Atlantic ocean dumps saltwater 300 miles inland from rainclouds & storms, & that sodium mass ratio statistics for FRESHWATER somehow prove that freshwater is in reality saltwater. Dumb, dumb, dumb.
-paghat the ratgirl
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On Sat, 13 Aug 2005 21:23:58 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) posted:

It is as bad as all that, Paggie. The abilities are down, the increasinglies are up, way up. It's becoming harder and harder to carry on simple, ordinary, succinct conversations with average people.
"It's beyond comprehension ... ". I like that.
"And your wise men don't know how it fee--ee-eels To be thick As a brick."
Me, I revere the small islands of sun drenched sanity that still exist. Carry on.
Implanted

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from snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) contains these words:

Ah, a change of heart from your earlier mistake when you claimed

(It does salinate soil in Australia, btw..cite already provided)

Osgood Mackennzie used rhododendron ponticum for that purpose at Inverewe.
that the Atlantic ocean

That stupid assertion was by yourself, nobody else, when you said

Janet
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So that says to you salt evaporates does it? Sodium isotopic signatures are not evidence that freshwater is saltwater, no more than is a fingerprint left on your booze glass proof that the glass is actually your finger, or a crime lab's DNA reading from a cigarette butt proof that that cigarettes are people. Here's an elementary school science fact for you: Salt does not evaporate because it is non-volatile.
Perhaps you're legitimately not smart enough to tell saltwater from freshwater, but the facts do remain salt does NOT evaporate into clouds & it's loony to persist in your belief that it does. Rainfall does NOT salinize soil as you persist in believing; the facts are the exact opposite of what you eerily want to believe is true.
This really simple child's science experiment tends to convince the kiddies:
Dissolve precisely 15 ml of salt (about a tablespoon) in a half a cup of water. Set in sun until water evaporates. Weigh salt. From this a very young school child learns that salt does not evaporate or undergo any chemical alteration in water. Alas, I suspect YOUR conclusion would have to be that the 15 ml of crystals left in the cup is dehydrated water concentrate, because the salt evaporated.

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No, it doesn't. What salinates the soil in Australia is too complicated to get into here, it has to do with underground salt deposits, the loss of native cover and the inability of the soil to deal with all the water. The salt is already there, in vast underground stores. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3564857.stm for a bit of what's going on.
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Where do you think that underground salt store comes from? See below. I've capitalised it, for the benefit of those with poor reading and comprehension skills.
See

The Dept of Agriculture, Western Australia, whose information I cited and quoted, surely has researched and understands more about Australian soil salination than a BBC journalist writing a onepage soundbite for the general public.
http://agspsrv34.agric.wa.gov.au/environment/salinity/intro/salinity_intro.htm#salt%20source
The BBC article describes the process and results of soil salination, but does not give a proper explanation of where the salt in the ground comes from. The AUs govt site does, and states quite clearly that salty rain is one of three sources of the soil salt, especially in coastal areas. I'm very surprised you haven't checked the more authoritative information there, but here for the THIRD time is what they say; (quote starts)
"Where does the salt come from?
Soil salt can come from three main sources:
1. From the breakdown of parent rock: A very slow process. 2. From geological inundation by the oceans: Only on discrete parts of Australia. 3. From wind blown salt, USUALLY IN RAIN WATER FROM THE OCEAN.
SALT IN RAINFALL can range from about 20 kg/ha/per annum (usually inland with low rainfall) to more than 200 kg/ha/per annum (usually coastal with high rainfall). IN MOST OF AUSTRALIA THIS IS THE SOURCE OF STORED SALTS.
Stored salt levels
Salt becomes stored in the landscape through the balance of salt input (through rainfall) and loss through leaching or drainage from the catchment. In areas where potential evaporation is high and rainfall is low (semi-arid and arid zones), salt falls on the landscape but is not flushed out. It therefore accumulates, usually below the root zone of original native vegetation. " (end quote)
They also suggest further reading at
Hingston, FJ and Gailitis, V (1976) The geographic variation of salt precipitated over Western Australia. Aust. J. Soil Res., v.14, p.319-335.
Get that? It tells you there is scientific, peer reviewed, accepted agricultural research in Australia into salt precipitated over western Australia. For the dumber Americans here, precipitated means it fell in rain. All you have to do, to learn more about how that rained salt becomes part of the soil salination problem, is read the WA salination website.
Janet.
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On Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:38:19 +0100, Janet Baraclough

WTF does this have to do with Americans? BTW I am a citizen of the United States NOT an American....American covers N and S America....seems your knowledge base needs some updating!
Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets. To plant a pine, one need only own a shovel. -- Aldo Leopold
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Ask Paghat; it was she who referred to America's " increasingly imbecilic population".
Janet
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