roundup in the yard and garden

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rec.gardens

No, they annoy me.
Michael
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was forced to post this

I get annoyed when people entertain themselves by threatening the health of children they've never met, and pretending they don't know they're creating a threat. That's an accurate interpretation of what you do when you use lawn chemicals.
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rec.gardens

Please spare me the sanctimonious chest thumping. Who said anyone was "entertaining themselves" by threatening the health of children"? Actually that is *your* interpretation of what people do when they use lawn chemicals. You make it sound as if people are out there purposely dumping gallons of chemicals onto their lawns with the sole intent of doing harm to future generations. Do you seriously believe there is a global conspiracy to threaten the health of children by using Roundup and/or lawn chemicals for sport? I don't. Nor does the USDA. However, you have piqued my curiosity enough to do some research. Your Wikipedia link, while somewhat informative, did little to enforce your argument. I'm going to check the book below out of the library. Meantime I'll see if Missouri Botanical Garden has an alternative to the Roundup to kill my violets.
Title: POINT AND NONPOINT SOURCE POLLUTION
Authors Loague, Keith - STANFORD UNIV. CA Corwin, Dennis
Submitted to: Encyclopedia of Hydrological Sciences Publication Type: Popular Publication Publication Acceptance Date: August 1, 2004 Publication Date: December 1, 2005 Citation: Loague, K., Corwin, D.L. 2005. Point and nonpoint source pollution. In: M.G. Anderson (ed.) Encyclopedia of Hydrological Sciences. John Wiley & Sons, Ltd. Chichester, UK. Chapter 94: 1427-1439.
Michael
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was forced to post this in:

1) The only way to know that a substance is safe is to test it by purposely exposing people to it. You will not see that happen in your lifetime, especially not with children. Therefore, it doesn't matter what the USDA or any other agency thinks. None of these things can be correctly tested.
2) The point source definition is all you need, although I'm sure the book will be interesting. I mentioned "point source" because the opposite is a situation where contamination CANNOT be traced to a single source. This is not the case with lawn chemicals. We know exactly where they come from. Homeowners and golf courses are the primary users. It's not a conspiracy, but it *is* a large scale, mindless desire for perfection.
3) Here are some things you know: Some chemicals are known to cause neurological problems. In many places, the stuff you use ends up in groundwater, and you have no clue as to where it goes next. Perhaps it ends up in someone else's drinking water. Since you know these things, and you still contribute to the problem, you must want the problem to continue, or you would stop using lawn chemicals.
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JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

You keep repeating this so often, I'll bet you thought it up yourself.
The Clinton administration did place a moratorium on voluntary human pesticide testing in 1998. But you're saying they are not allowed to use the data collected from accidental exposures?
Bob
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Accidental exposures do not equal controlled tests, and certainly not in large enough numbers to impress any real scientist.
As far as moratoriums, I don't think that's the issue as much as this: You've probably seen newspaper ads asking for volunteers to test new medicines. What if you saw an ad involving a new pesticide? Now, how would you describe any person who volunteered to be dosed with pesticides? Give me some adjectives, or elaborate descriptions?
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wrote:

No, because it would not be an accurate survey and certainly not a scientific double blind study. The industry would laugh at it.
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The industry AND its opponents would laugh at it, and they'd be right to do so. Both sides have also said that it was invalid to test chemicals on animals. You have to have followed this back to the early 1970s to see the entirety of the testing farce.
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On Wed, 30 May 2007 00:04:46 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"

I have and I have been battling in this newsgroup for over 13 years. I've mellowed, to say the least. Now I garden how I garden and I leave others to garden the way they want to garden. I can't change that no matter how much evidence I come up with. Laziness will still always overtake the hand at task.
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If it affects their bottom line? Oh yeah.

You mean that government agency that is the recipient of so much purchase political pressure and recipient of grants from ADM, Cargill, and Monsanto? That USDA? Remember the tobacco companies who made billions by avoiding the nasty little fact that their product kills people or worse, leaves them in agony.

There you go. That's the way. Takes time to do it smart.

While your at it Michael look at the Wikipedia article on Roundup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup
It is balanced 'tween "pushers" and "greens".
Then you may want to tale a look at
http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/Roundup-Glyphosate-Factsheet-Cox.htm
If a small amount chemical will kill you dead quickly, the USDA and the FDA will probably, reasonably protect you from it. The scary part is "Body Burden" http://www.chemicalbodyburden.org/ where really very small amounts of chemicals can work together synergistically to bring you down. My favorite (?) example is thalidomide which took years to get off the market, even when it should have been obvious that it was causing monstrously malformed babies.
Look forward to you kickin' some newbie butt.
- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
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Joe, how long you been gardening? How long have you lived with open ground around you? Some people since before they can remember and some people have just moved out of the projects.
Maybe you enjoyed doing other things before you learned the pleasures of gardening. What ever it was, you didn't learn gardening from divine revelation, you had to invest some time. We are all responsible for tons of information that mostly eats up our time remembering where to find it much less remembering what it is. If nothing else we all read at different rates. So give Michael a break and help fast-track him to a sane environment instead of pissing him off at you and the row you represent.
Unless you have a representative from Cargill or Monsanto in front of you, don't stomp him. If you do, save some for me.
- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)
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wrote:

I've been gardening for about 35 years. I digested news about chemicals for several years before that. To me, there was never any connection between gardening and chemicals. Although I think "Crockett's Victory Garden" is one of the most useful books ever written for new gardeners, I was surprised to see how often he suggested dousing things with chemicals.
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Jim Crockett's Victory Garden was my first vegetable gardening book, but even back then I was reading Organic Gardening and Farming and knew Jim's use of chemicals was a Bad Thing. Jim died of cancer at age 64 (which is looking younger and younger every day to me!). Ya gotta wonder......
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Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
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expounded:

Yeah..I wonder about his death, too. I still use that book as my calendar.
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Wow, I never knew he was that young! That's horrible.
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I try to do as much organically as I can. I've only been gardening for about 7 years now. Most of my adult life has been spent in a condo, 300 feet in the air with a terrace. Sure, I always had pot gardens on the terrace and didn't think twice about using chemicals on the plants. Growing up, my parents hired people to do the lawn and gardens and I have no clue what they used. I'm sure chemicals were involved. Us kids were the pool slaves. Talk about chemicals ;( I suppose I pretty much grew up using them. I always had green hair every summer.
When I finally moved out here (sort of against my will, mind you) I wanted organic gardening and fewer chemicals. I don't use chemicals on my lawn, in the flower beds or in the soil. I don't want to upset the eco system and I sure as hell don't want to hurt my dogs and cats. Or any other animals for that matter. I feed the birds and sometimes take pity on the squirrels and 'coons and give them a bite. The insects are important also, especially the bees. I use home made concoctions to get rid of mites etc. that I've learned from my neighbors. Most involve ordinary household stuff. Not sure about the chemical makeup but most of the concoctions have water and some have dish soap, vinegar etc. IOW, I never gave a whole lot of thought about chemicals causing harm to people other than myself. Gives me a a lot to think about. I love gardening, absolutely love it, but want to do it responsibly and with knowledge. You couldn't pry me out of this house now. I'll never go back to the concrete jungle.
Crockett's death at 64 does make one wonder.
Michael <- not close to 64 but sees it in the non too distant future
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Try blending onions & garlic with water (1 gallon water, 4 onions, and all the cloves from a head of garlic). Put it in a bottle, stick it in the garage, and forget about it for a year. Not only will it repel any bug including Japanese beetles, it will cause car to swerve away from your property. Nasty stuff. Perfect!
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rec.gardens

Well I can do that. You *know* I've always got onion and garlic laying around. I've also got a bunch of those gallon sized spray bottles around with home made stuff which is all labeled. I'll give it a try.
Michael
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It might work when it's fresh, but I'm *sure* it works after getting really disgusting for a year. Be sure to filter it, obviously. First through a regular kitchen strainer, then through coffee filters, which can take forever.
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rec.gardens

Maybe I'll use the ripe stuff as mouthwash when unannounced drop in guests come by.
Michael
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