Re: What's The Latest On Roundup Herbicide?

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message wrote

Nature-Hating Republican Liar:
http://abcbirds.org/pesticides/Profiles/glyphosate.htm
Glyphosate Toxicity
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=roundup+toxicity
http://www.holisticmed.com/ge/roundup.html
Monsanto's Toxic Roundup
http://www.ecwa.asn.au/info/glyphosa.html
Questioning the "safe" herbicide.
Written by: Karen Thomas, October 1999
A longer look at some side-effects of glyphosate formulations.
http://www.naturescountrystore.com/roundup/page4.html
Research on RoundUp's Toxicity--Part I
Ingestion of RoundUp has been shown to cause "irritation of the oral mucous membrane and gastrointestinal tractpulmonary dysfunction, oliguria, metabolic acidosis, hypotension, leukocytosis and fever."
Monsanto's own toxicologist, Rebecca Tominack, participated in this study.
(Tominack RL, Yang GY, Tsai WJ, Chung HM, Deng JF, 1991. Taiwan National Poison Center survey of glyphosate-surfactant herbicide ingestions. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1991; 29 (1): 91-109)
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Ah, yes. If you can't argue the science, argue the person. Please feel free to provide a single peer-reviewed published scientific article that states that Roundup is dangerous when used as directed.
Trotting out articles that show that Roundup is toxic at very high doses doesn't mean squat. The same thing is true of almost all substances known to man.
Please provide a single article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims that Roundup is dangerous when used as directed.
billo
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wrote in message

Yes yes, you keep telling us how you trust first and formost the same researcher who "proved" tobacco was harmless and who Monsanto hired away from Philip Morris to work for yet another company that cooks the stats & lies outright to journal editors, as Monsanto was recently SO caught doing through JAMA for meaningful example. And my point still stands: Your trusting criminals to tell you the truth is as insane as trusting a known child molestor to babysit your children. Character does matter. It being shown time and again that stats paid for or concocted by Monsanto were intentionally fabricated does matter. To you honesty doesn't matter as long as the resulting science appears in even the most marginal way to be on Monsanto's side. But you know what, honesty does matter. And Monsanto researchers have very little of that required trait. If their mouths are moving, they're lying.
The science has been sufficiently argued & will be argued again by others I've no doubt. You held your own a bit, but were not finally convincing to anyone who has read about Monsanto. That you couldn't convince by citing cooked statistics is why you're now resorting to more & more ad hominum attack since your poorly selected choice of which science scores best was so unconvincing. Melchizedek posted useful information everyone can judge for themselves -- so you "argue" with the same non-argument you tried on me. It would be more honest, if no less ridiculous, if you'd just keep reposting the cooked statistics instead of repeating the ad hominums.
-paggers
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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My challenge stands.
billo
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On 18 Aug 2003 11:07:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

Your jig is up.
"Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets, but humbler folk may circumvent this restriction if they know how. To plant a pine, for example, one need be neither god nor poet; one need only own a good shovel. By virtue of this curious loophole in the rules, any clodhopper may say: Let there be a tree--and there will be one"
Aldo Leopold
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In other words, you cannot provide a *single* article in the scientific peer-reviewed literature that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous when used as directed. Thank you very much.
billo
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snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote in

Bill,
I admire your persistence in pressing this point and I agree that if one is not able to do this (show literature) there is hardly any reason to put Roundup in a bad light.
Still, I find it hard to believe that you are not worried a bit about the proven (!) dishonesty by MS in dealing with lawmakers, watchdogs and the congress. Surely you would find it as uncomfortable as most ppl that a moneyloaded company like MS is able to get away with a reputation like that? Especclaily since we are at a major turning point in human history (re: GM-tech) in which they have such large interests.
I may be a bit filosophical and it may even be OT to discuss the morality issue here, but I'm sincerely interested in your views on that; it might help me to put your other statements in context. Thanks for the lively debate anyway,
Ursa..
--
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Ursa (Major)/ mailto: snipped-for-privacy@iname.com \ *-*-* *
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No, it's worse than that. Not only does she not believe the evidence that is published, she also believes in evidence that does not exist.

Worse. She says, by analogy, that the brakes are bad even though the brake tests show they are OK because she believes in nonexistent brake tests that show they are bad.

It's simple. There have been lots of studies done. *None* of them show that Roundup is dangerous when used as directed. In order to show damage, the tests must involve very high doses, very long incubations, etc.

I don't ignore it. There have been lots of non-Monsanto studies done. None of them show ill effects under conditions of normal use. In order to stretch this anti-Monsanto paranoia to its limit, it is also necessary to ignore and misrepresent *all* studies. That is what paghat and her friends are doing. Go back and read how paghat misrepresented the Marc sea urchin study. Go back and read how paghat misrepresented the Erikkson study. In both, she misstated the findings. In the latter she claimed a finding in direct contradiction to that of the authors.
If you go back and look at the studies that do show damage, they all occur at exposure higher than would be found in directed use. I have already shown this in the sea urchin study that paghat dragged out. It is true in the others as well. For instance, on of the posters threw out a Wistar rat study that showed, once again, that Roundup is toxic, but only at very high doses. As the authors state: "the doses used in this study would never expected to correspond to human exposure levels under normal circumstances." (Dallegrave, E. et al. The teratogenic potential of the herbicide glyphosate-Roundup in Wistar rats Toxicology Letters 2003 142:45-52)
One would think that after all these studies, there would be *one* that shows that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed, if this were in fact the case.
Such a study does not exist.
billo
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In fact, none of the peer-reviewed articles you posted made the claim that Roundup was dangerous to humans when used as directed.
But, please, if I am wrong, feel free to point out the article that does that.
Of course, you cannot do that. All you have are personal attacks.

One, just one, article in a peer-reviewed scientific article that states that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
Nobody has argued that one cannot overdose or get acute toxicity from overexposure. And the articles you posted do a good job of showing that high doses are toxic -- as is true with aspirin, salt, sugar, water, etc.
*None* of the peer-reviewed scientific articles you posted, however, claim to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as direct. However, if you have such an article, trot it out.
Please. Feel free.
Here, I'll help you. Just fill in the blanks:
Authors: Title: Journal: Year: Vol: Pages:
Otherwise, it's not *me* who has a problem with truth.
billo
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Sorry, paghat, none of the articles presented answered the challenge.
Perhaps you misunderstood it. Here we go again.
Please provide one scientific article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
Here, let me help you:
Authors: Title: Journal: Year: Volume: Pages:
Oh, and paghat, don't forget my other challenge. That "table salt" quote. Please feel free to post that too.

Oh, and that reminds me, since we are all hot on disclosure and stuff. And since you value provenance and credentials so much, I have asked you for the name of your employer and your credentials.
Perhaps you have missed that, because you seem to have been avoiding answering that.
After all, it's important that all this be on the table, right?
So, paghat, who is your employer?
So, paghat, what are your credentials?
billo
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wrote:

Since when are "mice, deer, turkeys, squirrels" invertibrates? Or do you know as little about writing as you do about fact-finding?
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=roundup+toxicity
http://www.naturescountrystore.com/roundup/page4.html
Research on RoundUp's Toxicity--Part I
Ingestion of RoundUp has been shown to cause "irritation of the oral mucous membrane and gastrointestinal tractpulmonary dysfunction, oliguria, metabolic acidosis, hypotension, leukocytosis and fever."
Monsanto's own toxicologist, Rebecca Tominack, participated in this study.
(Tominack RL, Yang GY, Tsai WJ, Chung HM, Deng JF, 1991. Taiwan National Poison Center survey of glyphosate-surfactant herbicide ingestions. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 1991; 29 (1): 91-109)
Many people report experiencing severe digestive problems related to irritation of their gastrointestinal tract after overexposure to RoundUp, limiting the foods their bodies will tolerate to a very few bland foods.
This is believed to be related to the fact that in a 1983 study by Heitanen, Linnainmaa and Vainio, RoundUp's main ingredient, glyphosate, was shown to decrease the hepatic level level of cytochrome P-450, monooxygenase activities, and the intestinal activity of aryl hydrocarbon hydroxylase.
The inhibition of erythrocyte glutathione conjugate transport by polyethoxylated surfactants has also been reported in a 1993 letter to FEBS from studies done by P. G. Board, part of the Molecular Genetics Group, John Curtin School of Medical Research, Australian National University, Canberra.
Glutathione is a tripeptide which the body produces from the amino acids cysteine, glutamic acid, and glycine. Glutathione is a powerful antioxidant produced in the liver, where it detoxifies harmful compounds so that they can be excreted through the bile. The glutathione released from the liver directly into the bloodstream helps to maintain the integrity of red blood cells and protect white blood cells. Glutathione is also found in the lungs. In the intestinal tract, it is needed for carbohydrate metabolism, and also appears to exert anti-aging effects, aiding in the breakdown of oxidized fats that may contribute to atherosclerosis. Glutathione's role in carbohydrate metabolism is compromised by the effect of RoundUp's surfactant, POEA, on erythrocyte glutathion conjugate transport.
RoundUp causes damage to the liver that inhibits the liver's ability to process toxic substances.
Research subject animals injected with glyphosate evidenced a depressed function of the liver. "Glyphosate decreased the hepatic function of cytochrome P-450 and monoxygnease activities and the intestinal activity of aryl hydrocarbon hydrolase." (Heitanen et al, 1983). The P-450 enzyme system is one of the main body systems for detoxifying harmful chemicals. When it becomes impaired by those same chemicals it is supposed to be detoxifying, the effects of a given chemical on the body increase dramatically.
(Heitanen, et al., 1983. Effects of phenoxyherbicides and glyphosate on the hepatic and intestinal biotransformation activities in the rat. Acta Pharmacol Toxicol (Copenh) 1983 Aug; 53(2):103-12.)
Testing of patients suffering RoundUp overexposure has indicated damage to their P-450 enzyme system.
Roundup produces significant increases in sister-chromatid exchanges (SCE), albeit in higher concentrations over those used for other pesticides. This suggests that it should be evaluated in other genetic tests measuring mutations and chromosome aberrations, although few studies of this nature have yet been done.
A 1980 study by Vigfusson and Vyse noted sister-chromatid exchanges in human lymphocytes in vitro. This lymphocyte disturbance correlates with the swelling experienced by persons poisoned by RoundUp.
(Vigfusson, N.V. and Vyse, E.R. (1980), "The effect of the pesticides, Dexon, Captan, and Roundup, on sister-chromatid exchanges in human lymphocytes in vitro". MUTATION RESEARCH, v.79 p.53-57.)
William Meggs, M.D., Ph.D., School of Medicine, East Carolina University:
In patients who have been chemically injured, Meggs has noted significant lymphatic hyperplasia, lymphatic tissue that is swollen and engorged. He has also found significant cobblestoning in upper airway passages. This represents chronic inflammation caused by lymphocytes migrating out of the blood stream and seeping into the tissues. Meggs has also noted thickening of the structure called the basement membrane, the structure on which the lining of cells that lines the interior of the nose sits. Meggs' study also found a defect in the tight junctions (the joining of cells together) and a proliferation of nerve fibers.
"Chemicals bind to receptors on nerve fibers and produce something called neurogenic inflammation. These chemicals bind to these receptors and cause the release of potent substances that produce inflammation in tissue.
When chemicals bind to nerve fibers, they can produce inflammation. Inflammation, in turn, produces other changes in the tissue, and it brings in these lymphocytes. We believe that inflammation causes these barrier cells to open up and sometimes even come off the basement membrane. Below the basement membrane is the nerve fibers, so we have a process whereby a chemical exposure will damage the lining of the nose.
What happens is people have a large chemical exposure, they breathe in noxious chemicals, and this damages the epithelium. This huge exposure is able to penetrate this barrier we have between the chemicals we breathe in and these nerve cells beneath the lining layer that react to chemicals by producing inflammation. The inflammation, in turn, produces substances that cause further damage to the lining cell, and actually produce the substances which cause the tight junctions between these cells to open up. In some cases the cells actually come off and just leave these bare nerves exposed. Once you have the bare nerves exposed, low levels of chemicals that we all experience every day are enough to produce inflammation which in turn keeps the epithelium damaged."
RoundUp was found to cause significant DNA damage to erythrocytes (red blood cells) in a study done in 1997 by Clements, Ralph and Petras. RoundUp's surfactant, POEA, is known to cause haemolysis.
(Clements C, Ralph S, Pertas M, 1997. Genotoxicity of select herbicides in Rana catesbeiana tadpoles using the alkaline single-cell gel DNA electrophoresis (comet) assay. Environ Mol Mutagen 1997; 29(3):277-288.)
(Sawada Y, Nagai Y, Ueyama M, Yamamoto I, 1988. Probable toxicity of surface-active agent in commercial herbicide containing glyphosate. Lancet. 1988 Feb 6;1(8580):299.)
In haemolysis, hemoglobin leaks from the red blood cells, leaving them unable to transport sufficient supplies of oxygen to the body's tissues.
The chest pains, difficulty breathing, and impaired cognitive skills reported by persons who have sustained RoundUp poisoning also point to impairment of the blood's oxygen transport system, hemoglobin, as being responsible for these symptoms. This impairment of the erythrocytes' ability to deliver adequate oxygen to both brain and body results in impaired tissue perfusion and hypoxia.
"The brain is particularly vulnerable to hypoxia, and exposure to toxins that interfere with the intake, transport and utilization of oxygen provoke rapid and major neuronal damage. Compounds crossing the blood-brain barrier may induce both general and extremely localized neurotoxic effects."
(Kyvik KR, Morn BE, 1995. Environmental poisons and the nervous system. Tidsskr Nor Laegeforen 1995. June 10; 115(15):1834-8.)
According to both the EPA and the World Health Organization in 1993 and 1994, glyphosate appears to mimic adrenaline. This would explain the sleeping problems encountered by many persons exposed to RoundUp, as for them, cortisol appears to no longer be properly regulated by their bodies' adrenal glands.
(US EPA, 1993. EPA Reregistration Eligibility Document, Glyphosate, Office of Prevention, Pesticides and Toxic Substances, Washington, D.C., September 1993.)
(IPCS, 1994. Environmental health criteria 159: Glyphosate. International Programme of Chemical Safety, World Health Organization, Geneva.)
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I hear that Monsanto lost the patent or it ran out for Roundup.
wrote:

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On 10 Aug 2003 05:42:47 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@email.msn.com ( snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com) wrote:

I dont know, but it's as expensive as platinum. A tiny bottle of extra concentrated 50% glyphosate is $70 locally.
It is the only thing I know that will kill Norway maple trees. If you chop the tree at the base in springtime, you will have over a dozen 3-foot tall sprouts by fall. A "painted" application of concentrated roundup on the newly-cut stump is extremely effective (coming back to older stumps and painting is not as effective). Pulling a 6-inch stump out of the rocky ground is not an option.
I hated the option of using chemicals, but I refused to have my backyard turned into a sanctuary for exotic invasives introduced to this continent and allowed to naturalize and wipe out all other trees and especially native undergrowth..
Dan nw NJ
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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:21:05 GMT, "David J Bockman"

Roundup at the normal levels is ineffective. I tried it and it was like water, instead of 20 sprouts there would still be 3 or 4. In woods with hudreds of stumps re-application every 2 to 3 weeks is a massive waste of time.
Dan
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On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:10:06 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@adsfgh.com (dstvns) wrote:

That's strange. I removed a Norway Maple last July (no chemicals), layered 4+ iches of top soil, and planted grass. No evidence of the tree exists, except for the firewood pile.
sparkie
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Bill Oliver wrote:

Oh, stem cell research. The votes still out on that one. And Bob Forbid that I get the feminist Sea Urchin Lobby on my case. Rather prickly lot. I'm pro whatever it takes to keep from stepping on them.
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snipped-for-privacy@email.msn.com ( snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com) wrote in message

no.
The anwer in part is a matter ov 'mutal to survive'...in other words the 'weeds' (ie in a different aspect, perhps us!), mutate to survive....whatever poison they through at us, we mutate to become immune. Thus (at an incresing increasing rate), the boffins are required, in the 'industrial food' paradym, to discover more and more potent poisons. The side effect of all this is that sensitivity is eroded....and eventually the whole senario implodes in to a 'great heat' or something. We have a closed loop of obbsessive/blind profit/exploitation going on fired up on RRCA (ritualistic racist child abuse). At some point this 'energy' breaks down, revealing other realities, more favourable realities, ones that many people have been closed to by RRCA etc. In other words you're still very pathetic 'westeners', but stay hopeful for reality change/liveration!
christian system is-a vam-pie-er.
Jah rastafar-I
King Amdo
What are

PEACE!
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This continues to be a lie that paghat requires for her screeds.
My challenges stand:
I challenge you to produce this quote, or publish a retraction. You do not have the quote, so you cannot do the former. And you clearly have no integrity since you continue to publish this falsehood knowing it is false.
You do not do your case any good by publishing falsehoods that anybody using deja.com can see is a lie. If you cannot be trusted to tell the truth in this simple thing, how can anyone believe the rest of your screeds?
And, of course, my scientific challenge stands. Please provide *one* single article in a scientific, peer-reviewed journal claiming to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
You cannot. That is why your claims have mutated from the false claim that there is scientific proof that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed to your (slightly more honest) rejection of science altogether.
And, of course, since you and your friends make such a great deal out of who *I* work for and what *my* credentials are, why do you run and hide when I ask the same qustions of you?
Who do *you* work for, paghat?
What are *your* credentials?
Why do you run away when the disclosure and honesty you find so important is asked of you?
billo
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wrote:

Bill, your continuing haranguing is not leading credence to your side of the story.
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Shut me up, then. Provide the reference.
Funny. You don't find that the antics of the anti-science crowd detracts from their credence, but asking for a reference *does.*
billo
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