Re: What's The Latest On Roundup Herbicide?

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opined:

Rich coming from the anonymous account. Yeah, I'm sick. Boo hoo.
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snipped-for-privacy@jh7ikd.net says... :) on the planet. I have respect for all :) life. :) :) Unless of course you happen to be a harmless solitary wasp that has decided to associate in large numbers on your property, turning over enough dirt in a 24 hour period that would make any ant green with envy..then it's a case of break out the tennis rackets..tis time to kill dem cicada killers!! :)
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Lar. (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!
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I do not do the killing of the cicada killers. My husband does it. We still have them, but not the many hundreds of them we used to have. There was a lethal infestation on our property. I still have respect for them. I merely didn't want to be stuck in the house for most of May, half of June...when they do their thing.
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Give it up Bill. I never mentioned where you work, nor do I care, nor do I necessarily believe because you have published papers, have different degrees and can cut open a human down the middle that, you are necessarily more qualified than any of us to determine that glyphosate is unhealthy or not.
I am not keeping Tom's work place secret, I happen to know where he works. That's all I said. I still have no idea, nor do I care where you work.
I've been in the same category as you with someone with way too much free time to drum up every post I'd ever made and used them against me. That didn't work on me, and it shouldn't work on you, either.
All I am saying is that I am a homemaker, where I used to work is of no value to you now, and that's really all I have to say. If Tom decides to tell you where he works, so be it. I can say he is qualified and rather well informed. I don't need to blow smoke up his ass. He is confident in himself.
So, anything else? If not, then take good care and forever may you be mindful that the peer reviewed studies can and are tainted in the agchem industry. It's done all the time. If Dr. Leibig were still alive, I'd send you to him to find out. I'm relatively sure you can drum up his C.V.
On 19 Aug 2003 13:37:17 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

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On 21 Aug 2003 00:56:44 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

Billo, I truly do not know where you work. There are many parts of this thread I have not read. I have no reason to be dishonest with you. I am not made of deceits, sorry to say.
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You don't understand. I am quite proud of where I work, and I have no problems with you knowing that I am a board-certified physician and have a MS in Computer Science. I only object to this bullshit diversion of you trying to attack me personally because you have no science to back you up.
But, Tom, since we are all so open and eager to put our cards on the table, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Who is your employer?
What are your credentials?
Please, let's see your qualifications.
billo
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Feel free.
But in the meantime, since we are all so concerned with being open and above board with our affiliations and qualifications, why don't you tell us who you work for and what your qualifications are?
Who do you work for, paghat?
What are your credentials?
After all, *you* thought it was *so* important to bring it up when personally attacking me, since you have no science to back up your position.
And, of course, my challenge stands. One single articles in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed. One. You can't do it, can you?
And, of course, my challenge to your other claim also stands. Please post where I wrote that one should use Roundup like table salt or that it was as safe as table salt. Please.
You can do neither. All you have are personal attacks.
billo
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Thanks Tom. It was the one query he most kept avoiding, though I asked quite nicely a couple of times -- what his emotional investment was in loving Monsanto so wholeheartedly & not caring one whit about their proven track record of causing extravagant harm. I'm sorry the answer was only what was to be expected, but it's good to know nobody without ulterior motive could possibly be dumb enough to make those sorts of arguments about truth not mattering, admissions under oath that data was fabricated didn't matter, nothing matters but that glyphosate is no more dangerous than table salt -- which argument I'm liking so much better now that even Billo quite rightly wants everyone to forget he repeated THAT particular page out of Monsanto's falacio-for-glyphosate instructional manual.
-paghat the ratgirl

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Indeed. Only among the ecofundamentalists does competence count against you.
Generally, USENET discussions are free from this personal ad hominem attack based where people work, what people do, etc. One of the the great things about these newsgroups is that the "right" to engage in discussions is not based on credentials. But, as I have found, there is nothing like being challenged on the facts to bring out the drive for personal destruction by ecofundamentalists and their ilk on the left.
You want to change the rules.
You want to play the credentials game?
OK.
As your pet cyberstalker found, I have a MS in Computer Science from the University of North Carolina. I am also a physician, board certified in Anatomic, Clinical, and Forensic Pathology. I am a member of the American Society for Clinical Pathology, American Academy of Forensic Sciences, and the National Association of Medical Examiners, among others. I am published in medical journals in the fields of Psychiatry, General Pathology, and Forensic Pathology. I am a consultant to the FBI, State, and other federal agencies on matters of forensic interest, and have worked with numerous federal, state, and local agencies in the investigation of wrongful death. I have received national awards for my work. Most recently, I was an invited speaker for a special sesson at the ACM SIGGRAPH.
I am not associated in any way with Monsanto.
As a Pathologist, I am competent to read the environmental pathology and toxicology literature, and as as Forensic Pathologist, I have a pretty good handle on what poisoning entails.
What are your credentials, paghat? What makes me or anyone believe that you are minimally competent to understand the literature you so ineptly and incorrectly parrot?
My challenge stands. Please provide a single article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
billo
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On 18 Aug 2003 11:32:23 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

And qualified to defend the very generous support Monsanto has given your employer. Oops no wait, you are in no way tainted by your self interests. My bad!
Curious how simply searching public information is called stalking when the self interest behind your overly defensive posture is revealed.
Your jig is up.
"Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets, but humbler folk may circumvent this restriction if they know how. To plant a pine, for example, one need be neither god nor poet; one need only own a good shovel. By virtue of this curious loophole in the rules, any clodhopper may say: Let there be a tree--and there will be one"
Aldo Leopold
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No. I have never received any money from Monsanto. In fact, I know of no grants from Monsanto to the AFIP, though as one of the leading Pathology institutes with a 150-year history of being a world-leading reference center, I cannot keep track of all of the grants to all of the physicians here over the past century and a half. Those interested in the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and the National Museum of Health and Medicine really should take a look at the AFIP/NMHM web pages -- www.afip.org and nmhm.washingtondc.museum. This is the kind of place the ecofundamentalists are so afraid of?
And, of course, my opinions have nothing to do with my employer. They do not represent the opinions of the AFIP, the US government, the Department of Defense, or anyone else other than myself.
And my challenge stands. You cannot provide a single article in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
Not one.
And so you make up this bullshit personal attack.
You really want to make me look bad? Provide that article.
You cannot.
billo
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Well, since we are so open nowadays, let's hear from you.
Who is your employer?
What are your qualifications?
I am a licensed physician with training in microbiology, molecular biology, cellular pathology, anatomic pathology, clinical pathology, and forensic pathology.
What about you?
I have published in the peer reviewed scientific literature that you are so fond of. Have you? I'll tell you what, why don't we match publication by publication.
You first.
billo
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Apparently his sole paying gig is doing autopsies. Even a lowly medical examiner can tell when they're already dead. Keeps him from personally killing anyone at least.
-paghat the ratgirl

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"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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You've attacked Bill Oliver, his profession, colleagues and his employer. None of this is appropriate for a science newsgroup. Why don't you discuss the data?
Long diatribes regarding the corporate misbehaviour of one of the manufacturers of glyphosate also aren't appropriate in a science newsgroup.
Andrew Taylor
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Hey, you clipped the data on doctor's killing. But I didn't post that stuff, so don't blame me for your inability to follow a fun discussion. I only pointed out his specialty is cutting up corpses so he's not contributing to those killer stats, he's just carving up people other doctors killed. If you hate the stats about the profession, go back to the original post & yell at Tom for telling it straight, not me.

Yes, Billo already stated that "scientists" don't care if the research is trumped up by dishonest people. That may not be true of all scientists; I'm not as cynical as you & Billo on that score, having worked in a research hospital long enough to have seen the good & the bad.
But I'll try to watch for the crossposts & delete as you wish. Wasn't me who added them, didn't think it should be me who removes, but if it's in your charter that rampant scientific dishonesty at companies like Monsanto is a taboo subject, so be it. Head in sand syndrome is your choice.
-paghat the ratgirl

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"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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On 19 Aug 2003 10:23:57 +0950, snipped-for-privacy@cse.unsw.edu.au (Andrew Taylor) wrote:

Ah but genius you are crossposting to a agrdening newsgroup!
That awareness doesn't require an MS
"Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets, but humbler folk may circumvent this restriction if they know how. To plant a pine, for example, one need be neither god nor poet; one need only own a good shovel. By virtue of this curious loophole in the rules, any clodhopper may say: Let there be a tree--and there will be one"
Aldo Leopold
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Actually, my primary interest at the moment is in the use of computer vision and image analysis to medicolegal questions. I am a consultant in visualization to the FBI, chairman of the Image Analysis subcommittee on the Scientific Working Group on Imaging Technologies (SWGIT) developing national standards for forensic image acquisition, am a consultant to the National Library of Medicine in the development of the Insight Toolkit for the analysis of Visible Human data(1), and am developing a protocol for the use of magnetic resonance microscopy for the evaluation of retinal hemorrhage in shaken baby syndrome (2). I was chosen one of Federal Computer Week's 100 most influential federal IT professionals in 1997, and was a Berry Prize finalist for excellence in Military Medicine.
Certainly I do autopsies. I was involved in the investigation of the terrorist attack on the Pentagon, and on other cases in the current conflicts. I am quite proud of the calling of Forensic Pathology.
Oh, and by the way.
Who is *your* employer?
What are *your* credentials?
billo
(1) www.itk.org
(2) Oliver, WR, Potter, K, McLean, I, Fowler D, Downs J. Mapping Retinal Hemorrhages with Magnetic Resonance Microscopy. Proc Intl. Soc. Mag. Reson. Med. 2003 11:880.
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people worked for and what credentials they have, but you seem to be afraid to tell us about your own.
What are you hiding?
Who do you work for?
What are *your* credentials?
billo
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snipped-for-privacy@nonya.biz says... :) Number of physicians in the US = 700,000. Accidental deaths caused by :) physicians per year = 120,000. Accidental deaths per physician = 0.171 :) (U.S. Dept. of Health Human Services) :) :) Number of gun owners in the US = 80,000,000. Number of accidental gun :) deaths per year (all age groups) = 1,500. Accidental deaths per gun :) owner = 0.0000188 (U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco Firearms) :) :) Therefore, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than :) gun owners. :) :) So in other words you are stating with math that if you have a tablespoon (14150 mg) of table salt with an LD50 of 3300, and since it takes just over 1/4 table spoon to kill 50% of test animals that weigh 2.2 lbs (1kg) we are to believe that since Roundup has a LD50 of 4900 it would take just under 1/3 of a tablespoon to do the same, that roundup is actually less toxic than salt?
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Funny thing. You are all hot to engage in personal attacks based on my profession, my person, etc. And you are hot to dig up all that stuff.
Well, not that funny, since you have no science to back up your claims.
But, oddly enough, you don't seem to have the guts to tell us about your own employer and your own credentials.
What are you hiding, Tom? What are you afraid of?
Since you brought it up, don't you think what's good for the goose is good for the gander?
Who do *you* work for?
What are *your* credentials?
billo
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