Re: What's The Latest On Roundup Herbicide?

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Often I do. However, whatever your feelings about my work ethic, attacking me does not show that RoundUp is a danger.
billo
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Pretty pathetic, this. A *complete* loss of any attempt to provide a *single* peer reviewed scientific journal article demonstrating that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
Instead, you slide to a pure campaign of personal attack and cyberstalking. The ecofundamentalist inquisitors are certainly out tonight.
But, since you have decided to drag my employer into this, my views are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of the United States Government, the Department of Defense, the Armed Forces Instituted of Pathology, or any entity other than myself.
And my challenge stands.
billo
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My jig is up? You mean asking that you provide a single scientific article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed?
Yeah, how dare I ask such a thing. Who do I think I am. I must be stopped from asking such an unreasonable question, whatever the cost.
My challenge stands.
And you have nothing but personal attack. You certainly don't have a single scientific article in a peer-reviewed journal that claims to show that Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed. Nope. Not that.
billo
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Billo is like my neighbor who went out and bought as many bags of diazinon he could so he would never run out when it is pulled off the market.
I don't understand how people could possibly be so ignorant. It boggles my mind.
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Well, since we are in such a sharing mood, and since the bunch here is such a fan of open disclosure, why don't you tell us who *you* work for and what *your* qualifications are?
Who do *you* work for?
What are *your* qualifications?
And, of course, my challenge stands. One article. One.
billo
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On 18 Aug 2003 14:52:24 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

I work for me, my husband, our pet parrot, the Tibetan People in exile in India, Tibetan Nuns and volunteer work.

Qualifications for what? For everything? Narrowing it down, my qualifications are as follows: I will not, nor do I ever intend to cause any harm to, or death of anything with the use of a pesticide. I am a qualified organic gardener and qualified to be a home maker and retired from the horticulture industry where I worked as a grower for both types of operations. My first job was grower of bedding plants for one of the largest greenhouse operations in the nation (a million square feet under glass with six head houses and sixty tractor trailer loads going out daily from March till June, daily), on Long Island. Second job in the industry was for a smaller grower, 70,000 square feet under glass where I learned to grow organically. I'm not a qualified scientist, but I know when someone is full of shit and Monsanto is full of shit. Period.

Your challenge is denied. How about you provide an article which says glysophate is safe. Not relatively safe, but safe.
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:35:10 -0400, animaux wrote:

Let's all sing Cumbia.

You are one of those organic fools.

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In article

Meaning you're one of the ACTUAL fools who view organic gardening as so fantastically foolish you'd rather eat slime mold off an illegal chemical dump than suffer the horrors of organic produce. So be it Timster; you're welcome to your diet. Allow me equal access to mine. Help stop Monsanto's anti-free-speech campaign to prevent honest labeling thus denying me my choice.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
  Click to see the full signature.
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On Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:27:55 GMT, Tim Miller

I didn't say that, you did. However, I don't believe much of the "science" coming out of land grant universities which are funded by Monsanto, DowElanco, Ortho, etc...

If it makes you feel superior to call me such a thing, feel free.

Ah, no retort.
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Only an ecofundamentalist would consider an ideologic catechism a qualification for a scientific discussion.
What are your qualifications that would make anybody think you can read the scientific literature critically? What are your qualifications in toxicology? In cellular biology? In molecular and clinical pathology?
After all, you, paghat, and Tom make a great deal of who people are and what their qualifications are. Try to do better than religious statements.

Of course you can't.
I can easily provide a reference in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that says that Roundup is safe when used as directed:
Williams, G. M., Kroes, R., and Munro, I. C. (2000) Safety evaluation and risk assessment of the herbicide Roundup and its active ingredient, glyphosate, for humans. Regul. Toxicol. Pharmacol. 31, 117-165
See how easy that was?
Your turn.
billo
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On 19 Aug 2003 03:01:03 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) opined:

I'd add people with compassion to the long list of people who don't buy into the lies of the agchem industry.

What are yours?

We don't lump in together. I happen to know where Tom works and I'm glad he hasn't told you. However, I feel confident he knows what he's talking about. Me, you can call me whatever you like. I don't need a science background to be a homemaker and organic gardener. I'm retired, have been for 10 years and I'm only 47. So go back to you job, little man, and make your Frankenstein logic somehow fit into the universe.

Of course I can, but you don't believe anything other than your silly little man world of knowing.

It's already been done. You don't buy it. I don't buy your line, either. Agree to disagree. Now how 'bout that frappe of Roundup? Would you like it flavored or plain?
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On 19 Aug 2003 13:37:17 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

And don't know shit about gardening.
"Acts of creation are ordinarily reserved for gods and poets, but humbler folk may circumvent this restriction if they know how. To plant a pine, for example, one need be neither god nor poet; one need only own a good shovel. By virtue of this curious loophole in the rules, any clodhopper may say: Let there be a tree--and there will be one"
Aldo Leopold
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Bill,

You make a lot of references to the effects of Round-up on humans....and when Round-up is used as directed.
What about lizards?? Is spraying Round-up in the eyes of lizards using Round-up as directed? I would guess that would have to be the case as I don't know how to avoid it and I have not seen anything on the label about how to avoid it. I have seen references to Round-up stinging the eyes. I doubt spraying Round-up in the eyes is recommended.
I don't know how bad the sting to the eyes is. I certainly don't want to torture the little critters...they have no access to eye wash.
Also I have used a lot of Round-up after some rather extensive research that seemed to indicate this stuff was safe...binds to the soil bla bla. Now I think I may have killed a bunch of frogs and tadpoles. I used the stuff near one of my wildlife ponds. I did stay what I thought was a safe distance away from the ponds. However now I see no frogs and no tadpoles in the pond.
If your references to the safety of Round-up are specific to humans and specific to using as directed you may be leading some of us into a false sense of security with respect to our wildlife friends.
Is spraying Round-up in the eyes of lizards of no concern to you?
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Yes I do. My claim is that Roundup is safe for humans when used as directed.

It is a different question. After we all agree that Roundup is safe for humans when used as directed, then we can start looking into its effects on lizards when used as directed.
billo
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ASK'N??? FACES TWO FACES??? FACE TO FACE CONVERSATION"N CREADENCE CLEARWATER??? WHA? YAH?? OH YAH!!! SEE "C" YOU"C"!!!??? YUP??? "C"??? YOU KNOW??? WHO THAY ARE???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????/?????????????? ?????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????/ ????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????>>>>

D???>>>>LONG VIR?????HUH??WHA???AAAAAAATTTTTTTAAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAA CROCKOF SSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHIIIIIIIITTTTTTTAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! SWAK...ALoHA's 15 hohohohohohohohohohohohohohohohohohoho's etc
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Boy, why didn't I think of that very perfectest answer!
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How's this then. You don't know shit about human pathology.
The questions is not whether or not Roundup is bad for roses.
The question is whether or not Roundup is dangerous to humans when used as directed.
That's a pathology/toxicology question.
billo
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You certainly don't know the science. The only credentials you trotted out was a religious catechism and the admission that you made a career out of pushing this hysteria and are now retired on the proceeds. You have condemned rational and scientific examination as, in your sexist and bigoted way, merely my "silly little man world of knowing."
But hey, if you want to trot out some bona fides in human pathology, trot them out. I'm willing to see them.

No, my claim is, and always has been, that Roundup is safe to humans when used as directed. If you agree that this is true, then say so. Otherwise, don't try to play word games and diversions.

Indeed. Only anti-science fanatics should be able to opine about Roundup on a gardening newsgroup, eh?
billo
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That's right. You love science as long as it agrees with your preconceptions. Otherwise, toss it out.
billo
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On 21 Aug 2003 15:49:01 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@radix.net (Bill Oliver) wrote:

No Billoboy I never challenged your credentials. What I challenged was your ability to review Monsanto and its policies given your close proximity to it's funding. As religious as your fervor is to defend Monsanto it's obvious to some here you have some sort of interest in defending a first class bunch of chemical pukes, charlatans and liars. Personally I'm glad educations of your level are functioning in the capacity you are. Fact remains you don't know shit about gardening, soil, soil biology, and the effects of herbicides. Science and real peer reviewed research is horribly lacking as many mainstream herbicides go. What those of us who are stewards of gardens clearly see daily are the ill effects of the products you defend. Read some research on the effects of roundupon soil biology. Last I checked the foods we eat (those of us who eat grocery store nutrient lacking crap) is grown in those damaged soils. Science defended DDT and good science will reveal glyphosphate for what it is.
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