"Don K" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@comcast.com:
That's very well and good for yourself, but I'm glad people here are willing to bring up "crackpot" ideas. I for one didn't know about the possible detriments of plastic soda pop bottles and I'm glad I can make my own decisions regarding consumption without relying on the "scientific or medical" communities' opinion. I wonder if those people have decided if smoking causes cancer or not yet. Are eggs good or bad for you? etc etc
Your car has a seat belt, it should be up to you and nobody else whether you use it or not. You want to take the risk of not wearing it, that's fine. Probably nothing's going to happen, but if something does, well, tsk tsk.
I, too, like to make my own decisions. The post I was initially responding to, said, "anyone with aluminum kitchen pots & utensils should toss them immediately".
Since there is no reputable scientific organization that has come to the same conclusion, it qualifies as a crackpot advice.
All reputable safety organizations recognize that seatbelts and similar safety devices save lives and they generally recommend their use. I concur, so I take that advice.
On the other hand, some people feel that if you step on a crack, it breaks your mother's back. I don't feel that's been scientifically proven, so I ignore that advice.
How so? I do not consider gold that cannot be seen even under magnification, that is locked up in other minerals to be native gold--hence the list of known ores.
95% of the gold mined in the world occurs as native
What? why not 100%? You cite ALL of the places where gold IS. The minerals I listed ARE ores and they fall under mechanical mixtures which you cite as being part of your 95% of mined gold.
The only gold ore of any significance id Calaverite, which
But the gold is a prisoner of some formations of the minerals I listed which than makes them gold ores. Mind you it's not in all of the formations, so a large concentration of the minerals can differ which is why you have copper mines, gold mines, and silver mines. But it may be that the miners are working the same minerals in each mine with a different end product in mind. Here in Pennsylvania, the largest gold production was from the Cornwall Iron mine, which is the longest running iron mine in this country 1742-1972. Along with Magnetite, Iron Pyrite, and Chalcopyrite was mined. And at the French Creek Mine, some fifty miles away, the same minerals were mined, first for iron production, than as a copper mine. However, the Chalcopyrite, Iron Pyrite, and Magnetite were not auriferous, therefore there was no gold mined at the French Creek Mine.
Depends on if you think some of the leading scientific institutions are reputable. If you DO bother to base your decision on having actually checked the scientific data, you will find many who doubt cans & pots can be a source of the aluminum deposits in alzheimer brain tissue, but do think it could be aluminates from medications, deodorants, antacids, etc; others think it could be neither; still others think the door is wide open for it to be either or both. Several studies do show categorically that the aluminum enters the bloodstream then the brain tissue through diet, with no source entirely ruled out. Now you may think it crackpot, but in this case, I've read the studies or their abstracts, & wasn't relieved of my sense that it's on the REASONABLE side of safety to avoid aluminum. So I wouldn't cook in aluminum (not that I ever did), I won't drink from aluminum cans, I won't use a an antacid with aluminates. Is it paranoid? Not according to Dr. Barry Thomas whose Australian study showed CONCLUSIVELY that aluminum ingested by rats accumulates in their brains. Not paranoid according to gerontologist William Forbes of the University of Waterloo whose 1995 study showed that a population exposed to aluminum in their diet for 35 years had impaired mental functions 10 times higher than in areas without the exposure (in this case it was a water treatment method that included aluminum & ended up delivering trace amounts of aluminum to the area's water supply).
An animal modeled study by Dr Ian Taylor of the Medical University of South Carolina, Dr Peter Mannon of Duke University Medical Center, Fred Boehem of the Trace Metal Division of the Great Smokies Diagnostic Laboratory, et al, showed the mechanism by which aluminum enters the blood system intestinally, then is deposited in the brains of mice. They believe their findings provide a suitable model for further study of the same mechanism increasing the intestinal absorption rate of aluminum in Downs syndrome people & in alzheimer's sufferers.
Many similar studies have resulted in aluminum cookware being banned in some European countries. Sensible political response? It would be according to Hawley's Condensed Chemical Dictionary, which notes that aluminum corodes into water that is heated 356 degrees. Furthermore, if your water is flouridated, the flourine in water further corodes the cookware.
There is no NO QUESTION but that man-made sources of aluminum are associated with alzheimers. The only question is which or how many possible sources are absorbed. The studies by Thomas, & by Forbes, as well as a study by Dr. Paolo Prolo of the University of California at Los Angeles (which institute you've apparently categorized as crackpot -- perhaps you'd rather rely on your own decision-making powers based on something rumor of safety spread by aluminum industry) have shown categorically that aluminum in the water supply is a key source of the aluminum deposits in human brains & associated with dementia.. Dr. Prolo however felt that the amount of aluminum from cookware was not yet proven (not by his study). Paul found that death rates from Alzhiemers raised signally in areas with aluminum in the water supply (both from water treatment methods & naturally occurring bauxite among the trace metals), so this does not speak to cookware or pop cans as sources, no similarly large populations being available to single out as controls for exposure vs non-exposure.
So the confusion (or the unwillingness of Alzheimer's researchers to categorically condemn aluminum cookware) stems from the difficulty of studying it separately, vs the ease of drawing stats from regions that have added aluminates to the water system over time. Nevertheless, Dr. Stephen Levick of the Yale University Medical Center was so creeped out by his findings about aluminum that he threw away all his aluminum cookware
-- the KNOWLEDGEABLE want to be safe rather than sorry. Dr. John Koning of the Riverside General Hospital in Corona California worried more about antacids. And Dr. Creighton Phelps of the Alzheimer's Association says only that WE KNOW aluminum has abnormally high deposits in the brains of alzheimer sufferers, so make your decision accordingly.
Of course those medical practitioners are all crackpots in your estimation. You're bound to prefer the opinion of the Aluminum Association invested in protecting the can & cookware industry. They like to point out that a single antacid tablet or buffered aspirin tablet delivers thousands of times more medical grade aluminate to the system than all the aluminum cookware you could use in a whole year. But their propaganda is a lie. Here's the science: If you cook with aluminum, you add an estimated 3.5 milligrams of aluminum to your diet every day. That is one-third the amount of pharmaceutical grade aluminate in a buffered aspirin, & a fraction of the amount in the average antacid pill (which can have 50 mg of aluminates). But it's still a hell of a lot of aluminum ingested from cookware day in day out, & I personally never take buffered aspirin, never take any antacid except Tums the one that includes no aluminates, & use an aluminate-free deodorant since it is also possible to absorb aluminates through the skin. If in fact most people take only a couple buffered aspirins PER MONTH, that'd be ten or twenty milligrams of aluminates per month, but if using aluminum cookware every day, that'd be 105 milligrams per month. So even the way the Aluminum Association wants you to look at it isn't very heartening to me. And less they get sued for lying, even the Aluminum Association advocates NEVER cooking rhubarb or other acidic foods in aluminum cookware, which increases the amount of aluminum in your diet dramatically above the 3.5 milligrams daily they otherwise admit to.
The Aluminum Association is fond of this FDA quote: "There is no information at this time that the normal dietary intake of aluminum [from the] use of aluminum cookware, or from aluminum food additives or drugs, is harmful." They're not fond of quoting the updated FDA stances, which for instance BAN the use of aluminum coming in contact with dairy products, this despite that the FDA is highly conservative & slow to act in this kind of area.
What can be said today is that very few scientists believe the 3.5 milligrams daily intake of aluminum from use of aluminum cookware could be the primary source of the aluminum in alzheimer brain cells, not when the amount in medications or water supplies is so much greater. Professor Leonard Berg at Washington School of Medicine in St Louis does not believe getting rid of one's cookware would lower the daily aluminum exposure enough to make one whit of difference. Does that mean the cookware has been given a clean bill of health by those same scientists? Absolute not. Most of whom followed Dr. Levick's lead & upgraded their cookware long ago. Zaven S. Khachaturian of the Ronald & Nancy Reagon Alzheimer Institute says it this way: "Unfortunately there is no clear-cut answer." But Khachaturian's real point is that it is thus far unknown whether aluminum exposure CAUSES alzheimers, or alzheimer's causes aluminum absorption. The real question for these scientists would be "Do you use aluminum cookware?" I worked a while at the University of Washington Health Sciences as an medical editor, & was amused to discover that ALL the researchers in a herpes study had become 100% monogomous -- just to be on the safe side of something they came to find more & more horrifying -- so too I suspect that Dr. Levick's decision to toss out all his aluminum cookware was not a novel decision among researchers.
Certainly there are many researchers whose opinion falls to the side of the issue that pleases the Aluminum Association, & many such could be cited. For me it's enough that many qualified experts believe the issue is credible, & even the Aluminum Association "spin" ends up recommending not to cook acidic foods in their products because of health risks.
So when YOU threw out the idea that GOLD is a toxin, YOU were apparently being a crackpot, alarmist, or jester without much concern for facts. When I threw out the possibility that it would be wise to toss one's aluminum utensils, I had many sources of good science to base this very real possibility upon. The bottom line is this: Is there proof that aluminum in the diet is the source of the deposits of aluminum in alzheimer's brains? The answer is a resounding YES! Is there proof the aluminum CAUSED the alzheimers? There is not, just as there is no proof it did not cause it. Yet a study reported in LANCET in 1985 found that trace amounts of aluminum in the diets of infants caused retarded mental development, so there's more to this than a side-effect of senile dementia. Is there proof that any of this aluminum exposure comes from cookware? Yes, 3.5 milligrams per day if you use alumumum in your kitchen. Is there proof that cutting back 3.5 milligrams per day would lower the risk of alzheimers? There is no evidence one way or the other. Does that mean you SHOULD exposure yourself to foods cooked or stored in aluminum? There's a gene pool argument to be made that if you have this information, & still want to cook in aluminum, then you really should do so -- for the sake of the gene pool. And there's an aesthetic principle at work, too, as many people really do need those aluminum pots & pans to match their rusty ol' trailer houses.
Dr. Barry Thomas is a consultant for Health Canada.
Here is the position of Health Canada regarding aluminum cookware: "Aluminum can also leach into food from cookware, utensils and wrappings, but studies to date have shown that the amount of aluminum leached from these sources is generally negligible."
Actually Dr. Thomas is retired, though still cited as senior researcher on sundry research projects involving toxicity of drinking water, & cited on the specific rat-modeled Australian Institute for Biomedical Research study as that research's "Chief Directorate." If you need an explanation for how you could be the head of a study not personally conducted, then it's not surprising you also don't understand the outcomes if you don't understand the process. The hands-on work was overseen by Dr. Judie Walton. There were a slew of other authors in the symposium papers eventually published with Dr. Thomas as first author (because he oversaw the editing & choices for the book & wrote the introduction) -- everyone pretty much agreed (as Dr Barry agrees) that aluminum dissolved in water ends up deposited in brain tissue. None address the specific issue of pots & pans, but they have definitely put to rest the delusion that aluminum appears spontaneously in the brain -- it enters the bloodstream from the intestins as a dietary contaminant.
Aluminum sulfate is ADDED to some metropolitan water systems in the treatment process & that has had Dr. Thomas's priority to stop, even though he also has said there is not yet any "proof" that the alumnum is the cause of senile dementia. When a scientist speaks of "unproven" he's not general implying the opposite IS proven. And Dr Thomas's specific statement regarding almuminum as the causal agent was "there is not conclusive evidence. But we fear that it may." All that is definite is if you eat or drink anything that has aluminum traces therein, it will find its way to your brain. The rest may be assumption, but then, even gravity is just a theory, but we seem to adhere to the earth fairly well without proving it.
I gave the specifics. 3.5 milligrams per day JUST from the cookware IF you don't cook anything acidic like tomato sauce or rubarb (then it'll be more) or if the water you're boiling is flouridated (then the amount of aluminum dissolved be still more). But under the best of conditions, a "mere" 3.5 milligrams per day, day in & day out, just from the cheapy-ass aluminum cookware you're so proud to own. Add another 10 milligrams (or more) from a buffered asprin if you're one of those dopes who take a pill a day, another 30 or 40 milligrams from an antacids, it's starting to look like a healthy dose. If you REALLY want to cite some physicians who don't think that's a problem you could do MUCH better than Dr Thomas, who has never said it's not a problem, only that the greater problem is the amount of aluminum in drinking water.
Though much is not "proven" in absolute scientific terms, the least likely thing to EVER be proven is that ANY of the sources of aluminum contaminants are perfectly healthy & play no role whatsoever & that 3.5 milligrams per day is of no earthly consequence. There for a while (up into the middle 1980s) even the idea of bodily absorption of aluminum from diet & water was "unmproven" & Science Diget in the late 70s ran a whole series of articles among which only about one in ten thought it at all likely. Now pretty much every scientists agrees it's true -- the arguments are now over which sources play the largest role, or whether it causes senility or is a natural byproduct of other causes of senility. The Lancet report on aluminum contaminants in infant diets lowering their average intelligence as they develop seems to ME damnably definitive that aluminum is causal, but scientists are rightly chary of claiming to have discovered absolutes.
I've been a lurker, but I just can't resist my 2 cents - Aluminum is the most common element found in the earth's crust. Just about any water which is not otherwise purified (distilled or ion exchanged) is going to contain Aluminum. The increase in concentration through contact with cans and pots will
*insignificant*.
Also note that Aluminum develops a patina of Aluminum Oxide (*) which is highly insoluable.
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Seamus Ma' Cleriec) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:
If you care to change 'element' to 'metal' or 'most' to 'third most', I'll agree with you.
How much and in what chemical form?
How did you come to this conclusion? Are you also saying naturally occuring aluminum compounds and artifically leached aluminum have the same biological reactivity?
What happens when you apply acid or a catalytic agent that dissolves the patina?
I'll agree that the Al-O bonds in Al2O3 are quite strong even when developed as a patina, but considering it inexpertly, that seems analogous to saying graphite and diamonds have the same hardness.
Thanks for the 2 cents, but I think I'll need at least a dollar.
Undoubtedly it is paranoid. But take courage, you might feel a great deal relieved if you were to study the contents of the url
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in detail. In brief, the line there is that there is NO known causal link between Aluminium and Alzheimers, and that it is looking ever more likely that Aluminium is of minor or no importance in the development of dementia.
[snip]
"Franz Heymann" wrote in news:bf9mbj$7e$ snipped-for-privacy@sparta.btinternet.com:
From:
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disease but no causal relationship has yet been proved. As evidence for other causes continues to grow, a possible link with aluminium seems increasingly unlikely.
later ...
disease results from a combination of different risk factors rather than a single cause.
So they've said Alzheimer's results from a combination of risk factors after offering proof by probability that aluminum is not one of the causes.
Still later:
outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made, at least at present.
"no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made" - not for and not against
this problem one way or another.
Woe to you if you've been chowing on aluminum and carry the hypothetical Aluminum-nut-job gene. The rest of you move along, nothing to see here.
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