OT: Things to do before the inauguration

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Just like the Bush family.
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Who needs facts when you are commander in chief of the most powerful country in the world and can declare war on a whim?
When the reinstate the draft, people will be lining up to take a shot at the pig.

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country
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The trouble is, they'd probably only wound him, and then he'd use his secret weapon, which would drive the shooters to insanity or suicide: "Mah fellow American folks, as you all knows, someone brassulated me yesterday. Ya know....brass....like what ammo come in....I were brassulated. But, by the gracious of god, the surgicals was able to detract the bullet, and as I speak, the Federal Bunch....er...Bureau....the FBI is doing the hard, hard work of figuring out maybe if the bullet came from a gun, or some other weapon".
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Mehlman acknowledged that Democrats scored points against Bush, such as raising the specter of a draft reinstatement, which got the attention of young voters.
"I think that was something that worked. It wasn't true, but it worked," he said.
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I thought Larry "Bud" Mehlman died several years ago?
Those right wing nay sayers will be eating their words when they actually do reinstate the draft. You just don't have enough fools volunteering to join the armed forces right now knowing full well they will be sent right over to Iraq to be blown up by terrorists. Dubya needs more cannon fodder!!!!

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H.R. 163, which was introduced by Charles Rangel (D-NY) and which would have reinstated the military draft, was voted on in the House of Representatives 10/5/04. The bill was overwhelmingly defeated with a vote of 402 to 2. The two aye votes were both democrats. Neither sponsor (Rangel/Conyers) voted for the bill.
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On 17 Dec 2004 11:49:53 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (IntarsiaCo) wrote:

H.R.163 Title: To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors (14) Related Bills: S.89 Latest Major Action: 10/5/2004 Failed of passage/not agreed to in House. Status: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Failed by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 2 - 402 (Roll no. 494). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COSPONSORS(14), ALPHABETICAL [followed by Cosponsors withdrawn]: (Sort: by date) Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/7/2003 Rep Brown, Corrine [FL-3] - 1/28/2003 Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 5/19/2004 Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/28/2003 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/7/2003 Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 1/28/2003 Rep Hastings, Alcee L. [FL-23] - 1/28/2003 Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 7/21/2004 Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/28/2003 Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/7/2003 Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/7/2003 Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/28/2003 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/7/2003 Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] - 1/28/2003 Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes [DC] - 1/28/2003(withdrawn - 6/21/2004)
1. H.R.163 : To provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Rep Rangel, Charles B. [NY-15] (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors (14) Committees: House Armed Services Latest Major Action: 10/5/2004 Failed of passage/not agreed to in House. Status: On motion to suspend the rules and pass the bill Failed by the Yeas and Nays: (2/3 required): 2 - 402 (Roll no. 494). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. H.R.2037 : To affirm the religious freedom of taxpayers who are conscientiously opposed to participation in war, to provide that the income, estate, or gift tax payments of such taxpayers be used for nonmilitary purposes, to create the Religious Freedom Peace Tax Fund to receive such tax payments, to improve revenue collection, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] (introduced 5/8/2003) Cosponsors (43) Committees: House Ways and Means Latest Major Action: 5/8/2003 Referred to House committee. Status: Referred to the House Committee on Ways and Means.
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3. S.89 : A bill to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes. Sponsor: Sen Hollings, Ernest F. [SC] (introduced 1/7/2003) Cosponsors (None) Committees: Senate Armed Services Latest Major Action: 1/7/2003 Referred to Senate committee. Status: Read twice and referred to the Committee on Armed Services.
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http://hollings.senate.gov/~hollings/materials/2003127636.html
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No wonder the bill H.R.163/ S.89 was defeated.
It was badly written and vague quasi-patriotic fluff that could easily have been abused.
It looks more like a rough draft than a valid proposal.
It doesn't state the age of those who should serve, the length of time that should be served nor under which conditions. The "and for other purposes" is particularly troubling.
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H.R.2037 sure is a silly bit of fascist religious bull crap. The way it was worded ensured that it would never pass because it would be completely unconstitutional.
(IntarsiaCo) wrote:

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have
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I think the law should allow any of us to go to a web site and find out where legislators like that have their money invested, whether it's normal investment money, 401k money, IRA money, anything. In this case, I'd guess General Dynamics.
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On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 17:13:25 GMT, "Cereus-validus..."

So are you saying people should shoot at the president of the USA, or only if they reinstate the draft? Will you be one of them?
Do you think that's better then the democratic system, everybody just shooting who they don't like, or if they don't get their way?
Since you are not a lover of peace, and you don't seem to actually like anyone, why do you really care if there's a war or not?
Swyck
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It ain't going to be me, Rambo Rimbaud.
Who said I'm not a lover of peace, you lying fascist mofo ponce?
I'm all for peace. Its just not going to happen with prissy chicken hawks like you thinking the have the approval of "big brother" running the country.
The problem with wimps like you is that you actually like to squeal like a pig when they tell you to bend over and take it as they take your constitutional rights away.
wrote:

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Perhaps chumps like him should be required to read "Animal Farm", "1984" and "The Handmaid's Tale" at gunpoint.
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Orwell was off by 20 years too soon.
Dubya should read 1984. That is if he can read.
Maybe Laura can read it to him as a bedtime story? Too bad if it give him nightmares!!!!
The problem with Animal Farm is that he would empathize with the pigs.

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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 04:42:41 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

I've read the first two. It wasn't at gunpoint either, or as part of a high school reading assignment.
I heard the last one sucked, but was popular among the glazy eyed PC crowd.
Did you actually read "Animal Farm"? That wasn't a right wing takeover, so your analogy is flawed. 1984 would be more appropriate, except for the fact that "big brother" doesn't run the country.
Were you just tossing out these titles to appear educated, or did you have a point?
A good question is who is more likely to lead to a big brother or animal farm type system -- the set of people that believe in democracy and the right to vote for an elected governments, or those that oppose democracy, won't accept the results of elections, and work to undermine the popularly elected government?
IMO a democratic voting system, belief in it, and acceptance of the results is a critical component to a free nation. The point of view that the smart people should rule and decide everything is what can lead to animal farm or big brother systems.
Swyck
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snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com wrote in
<snip>

A better question is what is more likely to lead to a big brother or animal farm type system -- the kind of people that believe in democracy and the right to vote for an elected government or the kind that oppose monarchy, won't accept the divine right of kings and work to undermine a forcefully installed government? In any case, whatever answer you provide is irrelevant since you probably are clinging to the belief that Bush was popularly elected both times.

So in your opinion, a "free nation" must consist of persons who will willingly and repeatedly cede their authority and income to some persons whom likely they do not know and have never met, whom are not necessarily competent or astute, but merely display trappings of similarity or familiarity while making seductive promises and proclaiming dire warnings, on the premise that the ceded authority and monies, which are redistributed for control amongst the winners' friends, associates and a token few who bear a facade of competence, will somehow trickle down to benefit the voter?
The answer is 'yes' - if you are a shill or yokel who has been conditioned to equate 'democracy' with 'vote'. Welcome to the Information Age.
1215 1776 2005
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"The Handmaid's Tale" is an example of what can happen when religion meddles in government, and has spectacular success in that effort.

Read "Animal Farm" again.

Your leader only won by a few points. I accept the math, but I don't accept your leader's claim that he now has a mandate. Although polls are fishy, two recent ones were interesting. Close to 60% don't think your leaders goals in Iraq will ever come to pass (peaceful democracy, to be specific). Another simultaneous poll said 56% approved of your boy's handling of Iraq. Sounds like two very odd results to coexist side by side.

Correct. Smart people are not a panacea. But one thing's for sure: You don't want an intensely stupid president, with a bunch of very smart sitters managing him and promoting an agenda that's as misguided as the domino theory from the 1960s.
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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 17:55:27 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

Maybe I will. Are you saying it was a right wing style takeovers? It has been a few years, but from what I remember it represented a communist/socialist style of government turning ugly. Or more accurately, being unmasked for what it was.
Or are you saying it was the lying and hidden agendas of the so-called leaders that applies to your point? If so, then it would be a more appropriate analogy.

There was no mandate. That I accept. Even if there was, the government should do their best to represent all sides.
As for the polls, they are often fishy, but the examples you quote may not be as odd as they may appear at first. People may approve of an action, because they feel it to be the right thing to do, but may also see that it may not solve the underlying problem. If I lived in a high crime area, I may not feel safer by adding extra locks, but would still feel it's something that needs doing.

The domino theory itself was not what was misguided, as any look at the geo-political maps of the 60s and 70s could show. It was the strategy used to contain it that was flawed, though it did eventually succeed. Unfortunately, we're now dealing with some of the fallout from that.
Swyck
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accept
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The underlying problem is too ugly to face. It would require that every voter in this country swallow their pride for a moment and admit that our Middle East policy is being guided by a quote from (if I recall what my son was watching one day), The Simpsons: Inside every Iraqi is an American aching to get out. Or some such thing with the same meaning. Same stupid foreign policy that got us mired in the Phillipines over 100 years ago, and Vietnam later.

don't
Fallout? Where do you see the influence of communism? Where did we forget to sweep something up? The young suits who concocted the domino theory claimed that Australia would be speaking Russian if we didn't "manage" Vietnam.
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to lead to a big brother or

So let me see, the people in the Ukraine who thought the election there was stolen are idiots, in spite of the fact that international observers unanimously agreed? Is that your idea of "undermining the popularly elected government?" The fact that the opposition candidate was poisoned by dioxin doesn't seem just a tad suspicious to you?
The reality is that democracy by no means assures that the best government is elected - it merely ensures that people who actually vote have earned the right to grumble as loud as they please if their candidates are not elected - and in theory, this keeps things from escalating to the point of revolution. However, this system crumbles unless BOTH sides have absolute confidence in the integrity of the voting system -hence the near-revolution happening in the Ukraine.... Voting "irregularities" on the scale of the last two presidential elections here in the US are well-beyond what should be tolerated in an educated, technologically sophisticated country.Anyone who cares about the success of democracy ought to be busy "undermining" any of the current voting systems across the US which are both arcane and susceptible to wide-spread fraud.

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On Sat, 18 Dec 2004 15:02:27 -0800, "gregpresley"

If the election is fraudulent then the government is not by definition a popularly elected government, as was admitted in the Ukraine.
There have been cries of abuse in the US elections, and some are convinced it was stolen, but they have no evidence of that. They just don't like the results.

Well what is the answer to the current voting systems? Undermining the voting system in an attempt to make it better and undermining the current government just to be spiteful are not the same things.
Sure they should be improved, but I haven't heard many good suggestions as to how to do that. We had hanging chads in '00, and that led to cries for online voting. When that was tried people then said "wait is that really secure and fraud proof?" Well, I don't know that it is but its a little late to bring that question up on election day.
Swyck
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