OT: Child Abuse

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On 25/07/2014 4:18 PM, Todd wrote:

'From an ideologue'.....'challenge her.....'. Try using English if you expect to be understood.
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On 07/25/2014 01:05 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:

You did not seem to have too much trouble.
You should not hold your politics as your religious. Science too. You get as angry, except for the murdering part, as the muslins do when you challenge the Koran (probably misspelled that too).
What should be a fun conversation between friends over this or that new discovery or this or that new concept is not with you. Your axioms have been challenged.
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Fran Farmer said:

True, but the increasing use of it in North America depressed the price of sugar everywhere. And, as far as I know, sugar has become ubiquitous in prepared foods just about everywhere.
I *should* have mentioned television, which is not only an extremely passive 'activity' but also encourages an appetite for processed high salt/sugar foods through advertising. (It also offers, for the most part, an extremely poor model of 'real life' and unreasonable expectations of what a 'normal' lifestyle would be.)
Television is also associated with metabolic syndrome (pre-T2 diabetes):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17327343 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21568949
Sitting, especially sitting passively in front of a television, is bad for your health.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 24/07/2014 1:04 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

It has indeed. That is partly why I am a 'from scratch' cook.

Yup. I'm always astounded that some people put on the TV as soon as they get up. I can't stand the constant drivel that it emits.
but also encourages an appetite for processed high

Yup. As is spending too much time in front of a computer - must get out and plant that mixed lot of kale seedlings I've got waiting......
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Pat Kiewicz wrote:

I thought there was a whiff of understanding there.
You have to remember that that scientific nolidge is not a broad agreement (with disagreement over details) but the living breathing spaw of the Global Conspiracy (tm) desined to ... I am not sure what its desined to do having suffered brain damage from reading funde tracts, I am not really sure of any facts but I do know for sertain them scientists are all liars and have sold their soles. And probably their other fish or even their shoes but they sold out.
--
David

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On 24/07/2014 9:11 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

LOL.
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Todd said:

Yes, his theory is NOT something that was handed down from an Ultimate Authority as Revealed Truth. Darwin knew nothing of genes, for instance. Modern evolutionary biology includes population genetics. The entire field of Evolutionaly Developmental Biology (Evo-Devo) is post-Darwin. Punctuated Equalibrium. Epigenetics.
There is a great book about evo-devo (made into an okay but sort of rushed television series) /Your Inner/ Fish by Neil Shubin, which I highly recommend.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_evolutionary_synthesis

It began before the improvement in sanitation.

populations.

Doh! That was my very point!
"This distribution is now thought to have been caused by recent natural selection favoring lactase-persistent individuals in cultures in which dairy products are available as a food source"

adaptation-in-

that-

That's *exactly* what they are claiming. The human life span is unusually long (for a mammal of their body size). Menopause is unique. What selective force could explain how human social groups which support populations of elderly, *post-reproduction* adults have become the most successful?
If you want an example of the value of elderly individuals in another long-lived species, consider the African elephant:
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/292/5516/491.abstract
As for humans (sorry, this is behind a pay-wall):
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v428/n6979/full/428128a.html

Lyman Briggs College, field of concentration was mathematics.
http://www.lymanbriggs.msu.edu/about.cfm
My course of study at Lyman Briggs included chemistry, physics, and biology. Also the history, philosophy and sociology of science were standard requirements for Briggs students. It was a very interesting place to be in the early '70s.
I had elective courses in horticulture, paleontology, physical geography, psychology and anthropology at MSU. (My idea of fun!) I also took an engineering class (mechanical drawing) as an elective.
Engineering and science are related, but they involve rather different ways of thinking.
http://www.quora.com/Satpal-Parmar/Posts/Science-vs-Engineering
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 25/07/2014 12:02 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

The engineering students and the forestry students always got bad reviews on campus for too much drinking and lewd behaviour. I've recently been told that they still have that reputation.
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On 07/24/2014 07:02 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Hi Pat,
Tons of fun stuff. Thank you for writing. I have gone over your references several time and will do so some more as I have time.
Did not realize Darwin did not know about genetics. Mendel came much before him, but apparently, was not widely read. It is amazing the painstaking research Darwin did without knowing genetics.
What strikes me about granny is that humans, orcas, etc., survive and thrive because of socialization. Ordinarily the "economy" brain is reserved for animals that don't socialize. Eat and run. For those that socialize for their survival, they get the big brains.
To me, if you didn't figure out how to get your tribe to work together as a cohesion social group, you would have a distinctive reproductive disadvantage to those that did. Again to me, that is the reason behind elderly humans. They knew how to do things and taught the young. If the young did not learn, they couldn't grow old enough to reproduce. I do not see where menopause helped this, especially since most never reached it. Do you really granny or grandpa, if they even lived that long, would not have acted the same way, menopausal or not?
We may have the luxury in modern times of sending and annoying elderly parent 3000 miles somewhere else "where they get their own room", but Grok did not. You worked it out or you died.
By the way, orcas (mammals like us) live into their 90 in four generation pods (tribes). They figured it out (how to thrive from socialization). No clue if the female go through menopause. If they don't, it would seen to me that it would shoot the menopause theory.
Also, there are things that can't be account for with evolution. If I am not mistaken, Darwin actually wrote a paper on it. In science, todays truths are always tomorrows falsehoods. It will be fascinating to see what science comes up with to replace evolution. (And, what replaces that theory too, should I live so long.)
Epigenetics: fascinate field of research! Passing traits down from your parents was unheard of a few years ago. Saw a documentary on Swedish records where to kept track of such and it transpires that a famine would send epigenitic expressions to put on weight for two or three generations. (I forgot exactly how many.) Does explain why mothers who are immoral enough to diet when they are pregnant wind up with fat children. Their children too.
With our American Indians, they are being poisoned to death by carbohydrates. The Washoe, were I live, look like they are about to explode. There is no epigenitic and/or genetic mutation to protect them. And, they have been exposed to European food for hundreds of years. Returning to tradition diets heals them. (There are lots of references about that out there. Let me know if you want me to dig some up for you.) There certainly has not been any getting "use to it". Just keeps killing them. The addiction factor is something to behold!
Humans are just not showing any accommodation to unnatural level of carbohydrates. Our Indians certainly are not. Any mutation to help this has just not shown up. Again, because carbohydrate poisoning kills you after you reproduce.
And, although the American Indians are more susceptible to carbohydrate poisoning than Europeans, Europeans are certainly not exempt from it (including me).
Watched a great documentary as to why humans are different colors. The researcher was trying to find out the association of ultra violate light and skin color and why skin cancer was not a factor because it did not affect natural selection as skin cancer killed you much after we reproduced (like diabetes). She did figure it out -- it had nothing to do with skin cancer. And it was all about natural selection. Fascinating study in evolution. I won't say what in case you want me to find the documentary (Netfilx/roku) and I don't spoil the show for you.
Thank you again for the wonderful letter.
-T
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On 07/24/2014 07:02 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Hi Pat,
Fun read. Thank you.
Engineers are builders/creators. Scientists study things.
One of the things that drive scientists crazy about us is that we use formulas in the range we need them. We really don't care so much if they are inaccurate out of were we need them to work.
By the way, the engineer in me loves to cook. I think all aspiring engineers should take a cooking course. Teaches them how to think and plan properly (project engineering).
-T
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Fran Farmer said:

As someone who makes jellies and jams and tomato sauce from raw ingredients and used to bake bread, "huge amounts of time" is *entirely* accurate. (I've even killed and processed chickens and ducks, and can only imagine the amount of work involved in butchering a hog, rendering lard, making sausages, managing a smoke house, etc.)
You can visit "living history" sites where you can see demonstrations of how people used to live. Greenfield Village is in my neighborhood (1880s farm lifeat Firestone Farm), then there is Plimoth Plantation in Massachusetts (17thcentury colonial and native villages), just to name two.
>These days few people know how to cook from

I've had people look at the produce I buy and ask, "what the heck you do with that?"
I recently helped a lost looking woman clutching a recipe, who apparently had no idea where to even *start looking* for arugula. (I hope the recipe spelled out everything else in sufficient detail, so as not to discourage her interest in cooking!)
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 25/07/2014 12:29 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Snap! I still do most of those things in the season for the doing of them. :-)) I particularly love jelly making and just yesterday was looking at a commercial, 'proper' jelly bag and stand. I've always just used an upturned stool and a calico cloth to do the overnight dripping (I think that's 'muslin' in USian but not sure).
In the end I decided that the stool and calico square had worked for decades so buying a commercial one was an indulgence on my part.
I don't kill ducks any longer as I have none now, just chooks (chickens in USian).
and can only

Yep. Makes me tired to think of it. We just had a steer killed but got the lcoal butcher to pack it so we could give one side to the offspring and we kept the other side. Just packing half a big steer into the freezers was a sizeable job.

I love places like that. But as an avid spinner, sometime weaver, avid knitter and active user of my treadle sewing machines, I'm probably considered to be a living olde, timey madwoman in the way I choose to live my daily life. I prefer to use my treadles over my modern machine but the treadles won't (sadly) do a zigzag.

LOL. A friend was telling me that there had been a run on the shops in her local area because of some threat of shortages (road transport strike I think it was) and she and her husband couldn't get near the shops for a couple of days. She said that all that was left were the things that they would have normally bought so they proceeded to do their usual fortnightly shop of stuff like lentils, chick peas (gabanzo beans) porridge, wholemeal flour (Graham Flour) etc.

Snort. Poor woman.
I always have a new row of rocket (arugula) coming along as it's one of the greens I love and it grows here all year round and best in the colder months. Living rurally I need to always have green growing in the garden as greens are the thing that always look tired and well travelled in our small local grocers.
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Fran Farmer wrote:

Engineers are over-represented in the ranks of some antiscience movements such as creationism where they insist that they understand the science but don't. If you have a look at talk.origins you will find many of the educated creationists are in fields like engineering and mathematics that sound sciency to the lay person but don't actually employ the scientific method.
--
David

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On 25/07/2014 11:21 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

That sounds like one of the engineers we know. Uless one is in the mood for a rollicking good argument, the topics to avoid with him are ecology, pesticide usage, industrial chemical usage, solar and wind power.
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On 07/24/2014 06:21 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Oh brother.
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Todd said:

Don't pay attention to average life-spans. Especially in the distant past, they were heavily influenced by high death rates at young ages. Make it past infancy and childhood, and a female had a reasonable chance to spend a few years as a menopausal grandma. (You should have picked up this info from one of your paleo-diet sources already.)
Human lifespan took a hit after the transition to agriculture, but then increased quite a bit (and increased *before* the modern hygiene and medicine arrived).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy
The advantage of menopause (which great apes do not experience) is that it frees older human females from the burden of continued pregnancy and lactation. The article behind the paywall (and others I have read) have actually concluded that grandmothers increase likelihood (and total number) of grandchildren that reach adulthood. And that is its selective advantage.

Surprise, surprise! Orcas experience menopause:
<http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2012/09/13/why- do-killer-whales-go-through-menopause/>

Science is unlikely to replace evolution. It has been demonstrated to happen. What I will refine are theories about how and when it happens. And here is a clue for you all: lots of change is random drift. At some point, it may become relevant to survival, but very often it is not. It is just change. And, second clue: EVERY living creature on earth is just as evolved as any other.
Theories about *abiogenisis* (the origin of life), on the other hand, are quite likely to remain unsettled, unresolved, and subject to major rethinking.
And...
Humans are not just their genes and gene methylization pattern, either. You could take a certain point of view that we are merely carriers for large colonies of bacteria. I have a gut feeling that many answers to modern health issues are going to involve finding the right strains and proportions of bacteria to keep us healthy.
(pun intended)
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On 07/25/2014 07:01 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Hi Pat,
AWESOME! I searches for that and got squat. This gives a lot more credence to the grandmother theory.
Although, with or without menopause, I don't think granny would have been a competitor. Everyone had to have everyone else's back. It was not like in modern society, where tribe has been lost.
By the way, I have the American Cheyenne quote on tribe and family if you would like it. Some powerful stuff.
-T
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On 26/07/2014 12:01 AM, Pat Kiewicz wrote:

Germaine Greer writes about this (and much else of great itnerest) in 'Sex and Destiny'. I really must reread it (with a decent dictionary by my side as a necessity IIRC).
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Mendel was 13 years younger than Darwin. Darwin's book was published in 1859. Mendel didn't present his research until 1865.

According to wikipedia, the average is 29 years for males and 50 years for females.
--
Drew Lawson | It's not enough to be alive
| when your future's been deferred
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On 07/25/2014 08:27 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Hi Drew,
That explains a lot. It is fascinating how well Darwin did without this layer of the onion. My opinion, I think Mendel's and Darwin's work both complement each other.
Mendel was accused of falsifying data -- his results were too clean -- but he has been cleared. Peer review can be a harsh process.
http://ischoollmpiadozo.wordpress.com/fraud-in-science/

I found other references to this too. http://www.orcaskillerbeauties.delfinweb.org/orca_en_10.htm
The Longevity: New data indicates that the average lifespan of the Orcas is between the 50.2 and 80.2 years for Females and 29.9 to 50 years in males. Approximately 45% to 60% of the young that are born wild die before reaching the one-year of age.
Note that the above link did not reference their assertions, which is a huge no-no in the scientific and engineering community (not as bad as getting caught falsifying data).
The infant mortality in the above is heart breaking for a sentient (my opinion) creature. When one of the members of their pop (tribe) dies, they are heart broken. The screaming and crying is something no one would want to listen to who had a heart.
The 90 years thing came from a documentary I watched on Netflix. Someone may have had an agenda mixed into their work. (I like orcas too, but don't fudge your data.)
-T
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