OT: Business is bad

Shocking!
Unlike the pop media -- which uniformly focusses on Vietnam-style body coun ts w/o history or context -- Fortune Magazine actually published a sympathe tic article on how the Hamas rocketing and death tunnels affect business & tourism on which Israel heavily depends. Inter alia, creating difficulties with normal, friendly shopping relationships between Israeli Arabs and Jews .
http://fortune.com/2014/07/23/israel-gaza-conflict-business-tourism/?xidob_rss
HB
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On 7/28/2014 11:52 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Am I the only person who noticed that the number of Palestinians killed in Gaza is significantly less than the number of missiles Hamas has launched into Israel?
Israel's goal is to stop those missiles. What is Hamas's goal (other than the total elimination of Israel)?
To meet its goal, Hamas places its missile launchers in residential areas and has children camped on the roofs of its armament factories. If Israel targets military sites in Gaza, Hamas thus wins the publicity war. If Israel does not target those site, Hamas wins the physical war.
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
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On Monday, July 28, 2014 3:47:08 PM UTC-7, David E. Ross wrote:

And eliminate the tunnels, which are a continuing menace. Anybody remember when Big Brother was pressuring Israel into resume cement shipments into G aza? Supposedly needed for home construction. Well, it WAS needed -- but for construction of tunnels of an astounding degree of sophistication. Jus t as Israel was trying to explain to Big Brother.
What is Hamas's goal (other

That IS their declared goal. It's never been other. It's on their Web site and numerous other sources. "From the Jordan to the sea."

Speaking of children: It turns out that Hamas has been USING CHILDREN in t unnel construction, while the local "authorities" looked the other way.
====================================
=====Use of child labor not stopped by police in Gaza, where chil dren's "nimble bodies" help dig the tunnels that lead into Israel and Egypt .
Hamas used children to help them dig numerous tunnels into Israel and Egypt , a 2012 paper written for the Journal of Palestine Studies reported.
The paper, titled Gaza's Tunnel Phenomenon: The Unintended Dynamics of Isra el's Siege says that little had been done to stop the phenomenon of child l abor during the digging of the tunnels by Hamas in Gaza.
In December 2011, the paper's author Nicolas Pelham accompanied a police pa trol in Gaza and reported that "nothing was done to impede the use of child ren in the tunnels, where, ****much as in Victorian coal mines, they are pr ized for their nimble bodies."*****
Related: Gaza's tunnels
He continued and said that ****"at least 160 children have been killed in t he tunnels, according to Hamas officials."***
Since the beginning of Operation Protective Edge 21 days ago, IDF forces ha ve uncovered 31 tunnels leading into Israel.
============================= Seems unnecessarily complicated. All Hamas has to do is acknowledge Israe l's right to exist - and stop firing rockets from civilian establishments.
But that they will never do, as it would put an end to their power.
And to their profitability. Hamas leaders have taken a leaf from the late, unlamented Arafat's book - his little black book from which he -- LITERALL Y! -- ran his fiefdom. He and his favorites, who lived in luxurious villas by the sea, amassed enormous wealth, cached abroad, from their rackets.
Hamas is doing exactly the same -- enriching themselves while s***ing on th eir own people.
Including children.
HB
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On 29/07/2014 9:32 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Speaking of child killing, you might like to ask yourself why the Israeli military killed 4 children playing hide and seek on a beach, why it targeted a UN school where it kills 15 even after beign told 17 tiems about the location of that school and why it has managed to kill 1300 Palestinian civilians but has only lost 59 people.
The rest of the world if beginning to mutter 'war crimes'.
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On Wednesday, July 30, 2014 10:25:54 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:

You're getting your "news" from the pop media which uses sensation, not nec essarily fact. Whether card-carrying Jew haters like BBC or just plain ign orant or indifferent, the"news" you are citing generally comes straight fro m Hamas. Newspapers' objective is to to sell papers/subscriptions -- wheth er print or electronic -- in order to attract advertisers which is where th ey make their $$.
Don't have time at the moment, but later in the day I will try to post seve ral sites which contain, unfortunately for your POV, simple facts.

What an honor! To be appointed spokesperson for "the rest of the world"! I trust you will take your responsibilities seriously, and verify, verify, verify any pronouncements you may make.
HB
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On 07/31/2014 11:49 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Dang Higgs!
I am agreeing with you. That is just not right. Not right I tell you! Outrageous! Next you will be wanting some of my Moon Cheese!
Hamas is responsible for the safety of their human shields. What utter disgusting cowards to use children or any other human being that way. Anyone who uses a human shield like this should be hunted down and hanged for murder. What animals.
Any war crimes involved here is Hamas. They don't play by our rules anyway. IDF actually calls them on the phone before attacking and drops leaflets letting them to stay away from Hamas, as they can not protect them from Hamas. And after the calls they make sure and hti the place before Hamas load the roof up with children.
Israel need to win this one the old fashioned way. They need to defect Hamas once and for all. No more tunnels, no more rockets, no more Hamas. Live in peace like rational human beings or die.
And, how disgusting to have the press (anything but) report what is happening in such a biased manner, instead of just reporting the facts. The antisemitism on display is so disgusting.
-T
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On 1/08/2014 4:49 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Such hysteria.
Jews hating' BBC. News media is a mouthpiece for Hamas. Newspapers only reporting what sells.
This is a handful of emotive and patently ridiculous statements in response to what I wrote.
I realise that you have a particular bias, that was evident when you posted your support for our stupid government's change on the use of the term, 'occupied territories'.
I also realise that you might be Jewish.
Regardless of any of that, you should be capable of coming up with more reasoned, factual and less bile ridden, stupidity.
> Don't have time at the moment, but later in the day I will try to post several

And, where would this wonderful site be getting its 'facts' from? And what 'facts' do you think you'd be refuting by providing these cites anyway?
Lets examine the 'facts' I mentioned and which you seem to imply might be refuted by the 'facts' contained in your unnamed and unsupplied cites.
1) Children killed on beach. 4 children from the Bakr family were killed on a beach on July 16. The children were aged 9, 11 and two aged 10. Even the IDF mouthpiece Colonel Peter Lerner said that they should not have been targeted. Or are you going to refute that 'fact'?
2) UN school being targeted by Israel despite being told of it's existence 17 times. The UN must be telling lies: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsIDH369#.U9rzJWPI3ic
3) Perhaps you think that there haven't been 1300 Palestinians killed in the current skirmish. Event "The Jewish Daily Forward"reports that 1300 Palesinians have been killed: http://forward.com/articles/203187/benjamin-netanyahu-vows-no-truce-until-gaza-tunnel/?
So which of these above mentioned 'facts' are you disputing and why?
One Israeli source, 'The Jerusalem Post' (which also seems to be getting it's 'facts' from Hamas) reveals just the same sort of difference in death figures that I mentioned even though it's now quite old in terms of the deaths caused by the Israelis: http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/BTselem-to-High-Court-Force-IBA-to-run-advert-listing-Palestinian-dead-369215
B'Tselem (the Israeli human rights watchers) have a web site which makes interesting reading but since it does not support your world view of Israel being the good guys, perhaps you'll choose not to explore the full range of deplorable 'facts' it covers: http://www.btselem.org/about_btselem

Are you unable to use google? Or do you just prefer to make moronic and erroneous statements without checking that the rest of the world IS saying.
Here is just one cite that you might believe as it's a US site: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/31/un-israel-war-crimes_n_5637132.html
But of course if you were less one eyed you would know that Israel being accused of committing war crimes is not a new thing. It was mentioned at least as far back as 2009: http://www.hrw.org/fr/node/81821
The history of the Jewish people is well known. Sadly what Israel is now doing is not doing any Jewish people any favours. The following report is from a very right wing UK newspaper: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2707421/Rising-tide-anti-semitism-Britain-Jewish-people-face-backlash-bloodshed-Gaza.html
It appalls me that antisemitism is on the rise but it's not helped by the failure of people such as yourself to notice, or to be aware, that hatred is a two way weapon. Failure to condemn acts of violence against any one group of peoples is not morally defensible.
It's long been time that time the US woke up to itself politically and strategically but sadly that is not going to happen soon. Citizens such as yourself who can't dispassionately or logically, or even honestly, look at a Foreign Affairs situation and assess 'facts' that are easily verifiable by doing some basic research are too complacent and compliant.
You should spend some time wondering why you should give up defending Israel's appalling actions and why your defence of them is as dangerous as the sort of hatred there is the world against Muslims, but i'm sure you won't do that.
The 'facts' are there and searchable. Deny them if you choose but your denial does not make you right, just ignorant.
Here's another site which I include just for fun. I am amused (and always appalled every time I read it) that it's raison d'etre states that there is a need to inform Americans of what is going on as opposed to they are being told is going on.
Those behind the site appear to think that there are some Americans who are so darned dumb that they can't find out any 'facts' for themselves so lay on the info like they're using a trowel to help basic informative 'facts' penetrate; http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html
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On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:06:22 PM UTC-7, Fran Farmer wrote:

y.

ignorant or indifferent, the"news" you are citing generally comes straight from Hamas. Newspapers' objective is to to sell papers/subscriptions -- w hether print or electronic -- in order to attract advertisers which is wher e they make their $$.
[...]

[...]
HB
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On Thursday, July 31, 2014 8:55:35 PM UTC-7, Higgs Boson wrote:

in ignorant or indifferent, the"news" you are citing generally comes straig ht from Hamas. Newspapers' objective is to to sell papers/subscriptions -- whether print or electronic -- in order to attract advertisers which is wh ere they make their $$.

Meant to say that in the interests of NG harmony, and in view of the person al nature of your response perhaps you and I should drop the discussion. I have been through this before with people who share your perception. I us ed to try a dialog, but time and experience dictate otherwise.
HB
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On 2/08/2014 5:15 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

I am not opposed to dropping the subject however, I will point out a few points.
You said you would provide 'facts', the implication being that I had not provided 'facts'.
You cannot dispute any of the facts that I provided because they are true and are indeed facts. These facts have been well covered by every single news provider worldwide including in Jerusalem.
The children playing on the beach WERE killed, the IDF DID hit a UN school repeatedly and the death toll between Israelis and Palestinians is so differential that anyone who can undertake any non partisan analysis should be able to ask why that would be so.
I don't care if you or anyone else disagrees with me as it's not personal, it's YOUR point of view, but if you do disagree with me I expect you to use your mind and present reasoned arguments and not just respond with emotive comments that have no backing in either the provable facts or logic.
another example of the fact that you haven't been operating by the use of logic or thought is the fact that you have no idea of my personal 'perception' of the Israeli/Palestinian situation. I pointed out your inconsistent stance which favours only one side. I did not say what I thought about both sides.
If it's any comfort to you, I think both sides are controlled by murderous scum and both sides should be tried for war crimes. In the interests of balance, I will also point out that only the Israelis are backed by an ally which because of its position on the UN Security Council knows that the power of veto will be applied at any any attempt to control the actions of that particular side of the murderous scum.
It's up to you. If you choose to continue to favour only one side and continue to castigate the other as if it's only their fault and your side is, of course, faultless, then I will, yet again, point out to you that there are always at least 2 sides to every argument and I will continue to provide cites that support my claims.
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On 08/01/2014 06:07 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
The Israelis are better soldiers. Too bad.
And if those people were shooting at you and used their children as barricades to keep you from defending yourself, what would you do? You are morally obligated to protect your family.
You are going after the wrong people. Hamas is responsible for those deaths, not the IDF.
I hate to say it, but Higgs is right. Oh, now I have to wash my mouth out with soap just on general principles! (Just kidding Higgs. Perhaps.)
No Moon Cheese for you! I will share some Moon Cheese with Higgs. (Although I might have a tiny bit of trouble getting it down from there.)
-T
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On 07/31/2014 08:06 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Children play on a beach in a war zone? You are looking at this the wrong way. Whoever sent them there should be prosecuted for negligent homicide and if this was a human shield, those responsible should be hunted down and hanged for murder.
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On 07/30/2014 10:25 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
How would you react if your neighbor declared he wanted to murder you and your whole family -- wipe them from the face of the earth. Then when you were out picking potatoes, took pot shots at you. And worse, used their children as homicide bombers to kill your children. And when, despite all your work not to let them, blew up one of their own children and murdered one of yours. Then HANDED OUT CANDY TO CELEBRATE as another bullet whizzed by your head. Oh ya, and they didn't like your potatoes. How would you feel?
And if you protected yourself and your family, would you be a war criminal?
-T
Only kidding about the potatoes part. Perhaps.
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Fran Farmer wrote:

Percentage wise, of the two populations, muslims vs jews, it should be patently obvious to even a certifiable imbecile that numerically the muslims are winning by a landslide... muslims breed like cockaroaches... there will always be a new wave of cockaroaches, more numerous than the last, to replace those few sacrificial parasites. The muslims lost more bodies simply because they have more to lose and do not value life. On the positive side of the ledger one jew is worth 10,000 muslims so just measuring numerically the jews are actually way ahead. Muslims don't grieve for their dead, muslims consider death a great reward... the jewish war machine will reward them well... a people that doesn't value life defeats itself. And so it is written... and so it will be... same as it's been for more than 5,000 years.
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On 1/08/2014 12:32 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Sheldon, I've read your posts for many years and so have known for all those many years that you are ignorant and a bigot. There was no need for you to prove it by providing further evidence as you have done above.
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Fran Farmer wrote:

And yet you read my posts... you savor every word... what does that make you? LOL-LOL
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On Friday, August 1, 2014 2:37:29 PM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:

SORRY!!! Very confused. My message was meatn for Fran Farmer. Clumsy me! Please, please, still friends?
HB
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On 2/08/2014 7:37 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

I certainly don't savour every word you write. In fact I, sometimes wonder how someone such as yourself has got to your great age without being murdered by someone who you have offended. You arent'the least bit subtle.
I do read you though. I guess it's habit. I don't bother with Todd as life's too short for that but I still read you.
All those years of reading you when we both posted on mess.rural................ Even an old curmudgeon like you sometimes says some things that I find interesting. I still like your idea of the letter box to hold small tools in the garden is one example.
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On 08/01/2014 06:13 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
I am injured! Injured I tell you! I will never be the same! My heart: I feel it failing!
Okay, maybe not.
No Moon Cheese for you! You will just have to eat your potatoes plain.
-T
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