somewhat. but if you use proper terms you don't sound so much like
a bleeding heart animal nutter... and are more likely to get better
since you understand microbiology & zoonotics, you should
understand why keeping your "patients" on grass is a less than
stellar idea. keep the easily cleaned substrate, & decorate the
pens with pots of grasses or non-poisonous plantings that can be
changed out to get sunlight or new plants. pots should be
sterilized between different patients.
i keep reptiles from several different areas of the world. one
NEVER mixes species from different areas, & one never moves any
items between the habitats unless it is sterilized first. this
keeps diseases from spreading.
this works exactly the same with rehab wild animals, because
squirrels from the upper end of Central Park may have immunities to
certain diseases that squirrels from Riverside don't.
do you have access to your roof? it has a bit more area for growing
than the fire escape landings...
wheat & rye are fast growing grasses that do passably well in
pots. avoid fescues, as they can have neurotoxins (it's an endemic
fungal infection of many fescues. causes abortions in horses &
camelids. can kill goats & young camelids. may affect other
i keep pots of pothos going for the tortoises. pothos does ok in
low light situations & is edible (at least for animals). my Bell's
hingeback really decimates his...
If you could properly define "Bleeding heart animal nutter", I would
be more likely to know if I am one. Seriously, I don't know what
people mean by that. Perhaps you have to be a bit eccentric to go out
of your way to help animals and less fortunate people, etc. It's
definitely expensive, if that's the bottom line.
Mostly for a couple longer term inmates who aren't likely to be
released this summer. Areas won't be used by other animals, and these
guys don't have anything communicable. I could go on, but the
explanations really do seem over the top.
I'll just say that it's always a tradeoff-- no one can possibly
provide a perfect environment. Even the critters' original parks are
not a perfect environment. So I weigh the tradeoffs and make the best
decisions I can.
That's the current status, though we don't have a lot of potted
plants. They limit floor space. Hence the interest in something they
could walk on, even if it needs to be swapped out periodically.
Right. And I don't. All animals undergoing antibiotic treatment or
with any possibility of contageon are isolated. That's not what we're
talking about in this case though.
I do know about immune system differences between subspecies, but I
believe you're referring to distance of about a mile or so, right?
Which particular immunities are you referring to?
Yeah, that would be nice. Limited access though. That may be a good
That's the kind of info that I was looking for (though I wouldn't have
been considering fescues). I don't deal with reptiles much any more,
but that's also good info for those who do.
ok, then, have you tried full spectrum UVB bulbs. i'd think they
would help with depression in the patients, and i know that they
work pretty well on the plants in my tort pens. i mostly use the
CFL UVB bulbs, but you can get tubes as well.
i would try getting some heavy duty jelly roll type pans from a
kitchen supply (or plastic boot trays maybe?) and punching several
drainage holes. if you know a sheet metal worker, you could get
actual 3x3 pans made, but jelly roll pans might be as close as
commercially available. fill with a sterile medium (even damp paper
towels) & sprout rye/wheat grass. those both grow pretty quickly,
so you might be wanting to start new trays at least weekly, so you
can swap out the too tall or trampled grass.
i'm not much on squirrels, but i've repaired a few raccoon & birds,
and a big brown bat with a torn wing (hint: bats do not stay in
bird cages <g>). i'm more into reptile repair myself. it's amazing
what a turtle can survive.
Oh yeah, I have several types of UVB lights. That's something that I
researched a lot when I dealt with reptiles. Always worried about
MBD, but there have also been some vet conference seminars that have
correlated location (probably light and temperature) with other
diseases. I believe there was some relation between incidence of
osteomyelitis in northern states. Something that may be worth looking
into if your animals are prone (I've enountered it).
I deal with warm-blooded creatures these days, so they can still get
some outdoor time during the winter. We set up cages where we can
shuttle them from indoors to outdoors for 1/2 hour or an hour, and it
seems to keep them happier (Now if I were only less busy with the
little buggers, I'd be able to go outside too).
At the time that I was looking for data on UVB, the main resource was
a Yahoo group called "UVB Meter Owners":
Kind of a misleading name in that many did specialize in reptiles.
There were a lot of great people there, both on the more scientific
end, and others who did extensive testing to try to improve reptile
One of the newer topics when I was active (it's been a few years) was
the Weston UVB lamp; a full sized flood with external ballast. There
was a lot of debate about whether the fluorescent-type designs
(Zoomed, etc) were weak, or the Weston-type bulbs were too strong.
I don't know about resolution to that, but I did end up trying a
couple Weston bulbs. My feeling was that even if the fluo bulbs were
putting out enough 310nm, that the close proximity required would
result in hit or miss exposure. Since UVB radiation obeys inverse
square law, my feeling was that the more powerful Weston type could be
mounted at greater distance, for less proximity sensitivity. IOW,
distance between the lamp and green critter would not vary over as
wide a percentage. When you consider it, that's closer to how
Anyway, since you still deal with reptiles, I thought that may be of
interest to you.
Great idea! Restaurant supply we -do- have. <g> I'll check with
I love turtles. Never kept one, though we used to occasionally rescue
them when I lived in the sticks.
Already mentioned that my father studies bats. Moved close to some of
the large caves. Beautiful creatures. Yeah, I wouldn't want to chase
one around if he got loose. Not sure how you recaptured yours.
One of the current concerns is White Nose Syndrome (WNS), which you've
probably heard of:
Gotta wonder where these things come from. Luckily, it doesn't appear
to have spread much into southern states yet. Gotta hope that it's
dependant on northern environment, or that's bad news for large bat
ah, then you probably missed the introduction & subsequent recall
of Zilla's 'desert UVB' lamps. there were serious eye burn issues
from the wavelengths. i don't think there were any permanant
blindnesses, but it was not fun. i had one on my Schneider skink,
but he's not a basker & wasn't affected. i sent the lamps back
i have a snapper who will be 6 in August. he was a severely
dehydrated hatchling when my nephew found him in the road. nephew
thought it was dead, but brought it to me anyway. a little water &
some lettuce and he was off & growing :) he's gone from the size of
a quarter to almost the size of a tea saucer, but he's only that
big because i don't hybernate him for more than 4-6 weeks... so
he's eating a bit more than a snapper in the wild.
i also have tortoises, a pair of Pyxis (and an egg! i hope it
hatches. so far it looks good) & a Bell's Hingeback. tortoises are
a little easier to keep than turtles.
it does look like it's a cold-loving fungus. that's a hopeful sign
for southern bats, at least.
Funny punch-line but unnerving to those who care about wild animals.
Especially, injured animals need good nutrition and a place to hide.
Hostess HoHos aren't food for anyone or anything, calories?, yes, food?,
no. If you care for these animals, make sure that they have a vet's
care, otherwise what you are engaged in is just some narcissistic,
Disneyesque (unrelated to reality), cruel, ego-trip. If you are doing
free-lance rescue work, the animals you collect are at a disadvantage
for survival vis-a-vis those at a Wildlife Rescue Center. Call your
local SPCA, to find the nearest Wildlife Rescue Center, and ask their
advice. Yes, some of them will be jerks, but they know what they are
doing. It isn't all about you.
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
Are you quite serious, Billy? That was a joke, and I really doubt
that any wildlife rehabber will read that and go buy Hoho's. The
point was in regard to animals' adaptation to a given environment, and
I thought the point about acorns may be interesting to some. And yes,
they will get junk food out of trash cans in parks. I don't provide
Yep, this has definitely run off into strange territory. I've already
explained this: I fund all veterinary care, housing, and rescue out of
pocket. I have veterinary specialists that I deal with for specific
animals. I've been doing this for years.
Or you, eh? "Wildlife Rescue"... that would be me or about 3 or 4
others in the city. When one of the more mainstream organizations
gets an injured animal, they either call one of us, or they put the
animal down, even if it's healthy. Usually that happens within a day
But hey, thanks for your advice on this! <g>
--SNIP-- of the idiot Billy conjecturing and posturing, followed by
a well-reasoned retort by someone who actually does and knows, as
opposed to the jerk with a keyboard who doesn't do and doesn't know.
You have run into a couple of the resident loons, who are perfectly
willing to talk out of their a$$ about something they know absolutely
Here's where I fault you, though. ;-) You spotted them for what
they were, and yet wasted a few minutes of your life responding!
That was a waste of time, oxygen, and electrons.
A man much wiser than the Billdoes once said: "Never argue with
idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with
experience." Words to live by!
Of course, you stayed on the high road and soundly beat 'em both,
but still... ;-)
Make that 13. What, exactly, is your point?
If you could just lay out your qualifications to lecture someone
about animal rescue, we could put this little misunderstanding
So I ask you directly, AGAIN: what are your qualifications to
discuss animal rescue?
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT), mcarver firstname.lastname@example.org
Yeah, that kinda took me by surprise. I didn't expect quite that
reaction from a gardening group, and especially in regard to trying to
do some small amount of good in the world.
Anyway, I've sometimes encountered people who sound goofy but
eventually end up trying to help, so I try to be cautious. Apparently
that's not going to happen here. The guy who got uptight about the
Hoho's was pretty funny though. <g> That was excellent.
Thanks for your kind reply, Mc. It does make a difference to hear
from the other side, just to know you're out there. There have been a
few other good posts in the thread, so there are some new things to .
really? most of the ones i know of out here are individuals, with
the exception of the song bird rescue in ME, & even they farm out the
birds to volunteers.
most rescues have limited space here *because* they are private
individuals, & most specialize (like the bat rehabber in the next
town. only bat rehab in 3 states around).
Volunteers, yes. But Dr. Bob didn't give the feeling of being a
competent saw-bones. Our bird rescue is a group affair (a friend worked
there), with it's own site. Animal rescue, sets bones, and treats burns
before releasing animals to volunteers. We only have one bat lady. Saw
her give a presentation once. Wildlife rescue is not my strongest
I tie my dogs in the truck to a central point on a rope that goes from
side to side of my truck. The snap that is connected to both their
tethers rotates so that the dogs don't get wrapped around each other.
Five years ago, or so, a lady stopped me in the parking lot of a grocery
store, and told me that the set up was dangerous for the dogs. I tried
to re-assure her that it was fine, but she kept insisting it was
dangerous. She wasn't trying to give me a bad time. She was concerned
for my dogs welfare. I thanked her for her concern, and wished her a
Merry Christmas (it was late Dec.). When she started in again, I just
thanked her again for her concern, and again wished her a Merry
Christmas. After a couple of more times, she gave up and walked away.
If Dr. Bob was for real, he would contact the zoology dept. at a
college, a biologist at a local high school, or alt.med.veterinary for
his information. He wouldn't be asking gardeners with no expertise in
animal rehabilitation, which he apparently doesn't have either.
I think I used up my two cents;o)
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
How antiquated - having your dogs tied up in the back of your truck.
I guess if you get in an accident, their necks will just break as
opposed to being thrown from the bed.
Been to alt.vet.med recently? Dead newsgroup. And why would he ask a
question about growing grass there?
I apologize for responding in the manner you often do, but why assume
the worst from everyone you don't know who posts here?
Usenet used to be a place where if you were sitting at your computer
and had a question you could find a group that could offer you ideas.
If it's your intent to wreck rec.gardens, congrats - you'e doing a
bang up job.
Yes, lovely attack as usual.
Kate - apologies to the group. Long day.
Sure you wouldn't like to put a finer point on that?
At the very least, I wish his "inmates" luck. I'm afraid they'll need it.
I told the OP to get professional advice, and when he didn't see the
wisdom of that I took umbrage with his intent. I have no basis for that
conclusion except having listen to idiots for many years that have tried
to pass themselves off as "enlightened".
And your suggestion would be? My dogs love riding in the truck. What
should I do? Strap them to a pallet, secured with a truckers hitch?
Do you have dogs? Do you take them to the nursery, hardware store, or
the market. They have three lots to run around on but, like most of us,
they want more.
Sadly, you are correct about alt.med.veternarian, but still 2 for 3
It didn't start that way. If he could have given the group that he works
through, there would have been no question.
Ah, jeez, don't go maudlin on me. If you want to be an enabler for
anyone who wants to imprison a wild animal, fine, but I want no part of
Attack as needed.
Duh, it's the Summer Solstice, sweety.
There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading. The few who
On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:48:24 -0500, email@example.com wrote:
There's something about this that seems to bring the loonies out of
the woodwork. Hard to figure. You could post about mugging old
ladies and no one would comment. Post about spending time and money
trying to help animals and they start howling.
City newspapers occasionally run stories on the local wildlife rescue
people, and you wouldn't believe some of the vitriolic hate mail that
usually follows in the wake. "Your money should be going to ----
instead" (from people who obviously don't donate their own money to
anything) ...and even people saying that the animals should all be
euthanized (like the first nasty reply in this thread). Hard to
It's usually balanced out by nicer, saner people such as yourself. So
thanks for that.
I'm not a gardener, so this was probably a one-time (innocent)
question for me. Sorry to see what's going on with your newsgroup.
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