)(*&*^&$%&^(& "heirloom" tomatoes

[josephkk]

*

*

By damn, sometimes you give me a real pip. Science is all about _testable_ ideas. *Testable!* That is why i find AGW so doubtful. The very language used is like extremist religion.

?-)

[Todd]

Hi Josephkk,

1+

And when the test show something different, you adjust your formulas to match.

You stated it very well. Look at the way they react when you present a different viewpoint. It is not friends discussing fascinating new discoveries, you are insulting their gods. You are committing heresy ("Deniers").

Their models are so bad that "extremist religion" is the only way they could sell it.

Can you imagine if CERN refused to look at other's research, fabricated data, accused others of mental health issues, and then sold their stuff with religion terms? No one would believe a single thing out out their mouths. There would be no Higgs Boson.

-T

I will share some of my moon cheese with you. :-)

[Higgs Boson]

"Denier" is a RELIGIOUS term? I thought it just meant "one who denies"...

Joseph kk = Ku Klux ? Your ideas fit...

HB

[songbird]

i can point to specific cases in each of those locations if that would help you understand what i'm talking about.

i don't consider myself rich at all, but i do consider myself fortunate to be living at a time when this country is not at war within itself or with other close neighbors, at least not in ways which exhibit destructive and disruptive violence which ruins crops/land.

i'm pretty sure that in most of the cases of famine we have tsunami, hurricane/typhoon, fires, drought, wars and disruptions caused by disease. if you remove those causes and look at actual food shortages around the world very few are caused by not being able to grow enough food. i think a vast amount of food is currently wasted or lost due to transporation or storage problems (including governmental corruption, distribution failures, animals or bugs, or other spoilage).

to me you are seeing the only the bulk calories because that is what you are looking for, you're not seeing the number of calories coming from personal gardens or small plots or the non-conventional sources because they are not collected or reported in any manner.

one way to be less poor is to grow more of your own food by any means you possibly can.

i wasn't at all saying anything about non-carbohydrate plants at all, that is your own spin. my point is that there are more crops than corn, rice, wheat, potatoes, and probably the ones that Pat was thinking of in her remark.

take a look at the article i posted in the "alternative methods" thread and tell me there aren't a huge number of possibilities in there for exploration.

this is really the result of what? in many places before the arrival of modern agriculture (also known as the green revolution, but in my opinion it should be called the great illusion) people had a more varied and nutritious diet. if the monoculture plots were returned to small holdings with varied plantings as shown repeatedly by many folks (in all the areas you mention) then there would be plenty of food for everyone.

you may not agree, but this worked in the past before the great illusion. it works in a country as large as Cuba. it works for people in various parts of Africa and the Middle East (if they are allowed to actually have stability long enough to complete a harvest).

i don't have numbers you're asking for, i don't know how much land is under what kind of planting where, i don't even think that is all that important because it is what i would consider a temporary insanity which will eventually self- correct by whatever means comes along (be it oil shortages, specific nutrient availability collapse, wars, droughts, fires, ...). to me the most important thing is that we somehow keep intact various ecological spaces so that we have some way to recover and repair the damage being done.

my own experience is convincing enough to me and i see the wider benefits from it too. it is not that i haven't thought it through, it is that i see plenty of examples of people doing things differently and it is working for them. given enough time the situation could shift again where more people are back living in the country and farming more diverse ways.

songbird

[Todd]

Higgs! That is a snotty thing to say. If you disagree with him, just remain a gentleman and tell him what your concerns are. And, when you name call, you lose the debate. You also paint yourself as an ignorant imbecile.

[David Hare-Scott]

You are drifting off into all manner of ideas but not addressing the main point that I was trying to make with Todd and that Pat repeated - still quoted at the top here.

If you want to argue the world can be improved I won't. If you want to argue that peasant farmers can do better for themselves, especially if freed from war and corruption I won't. If you want to argue that their agricultural efficiency and diet can be improved by giving education and autonomy I won't.

If you want to argue that the masses of the world's poorest countries can be adequately fed without use of "grains, potatoes and a several starchy tropical crops" I will. The glaring statistic is the proportion of existing world diet provided by those foods (and still there isn't enough) and until you explain where that food will come from if those crops are abandoned you and Todd haven't made a case just presented a passing fad.

[Todd]

Hi Songbird,

I loved your letter. The only thing I would add is that the stuff tastes a lot better too.

I think what David is requiring from the two of us is specific details of what we would substitute at specific locations. Kind of a hoop that neither one of us can provide, since we don't live there, and in my case, I am not a professional farmer. Each geographic location will have its own issues and challenges. He also doesn't want to hear of efforts elsewhere to address the issue, such as a special type of corn substituted for rice, the farms you describe, etc.. He doesn't want to hear how things could be done, he wants specifics of how to do it right now. He wants an instant answer.

Interesting the impossible hoops he requires for some things and other things he just takes on faith.

We are so very past a "passing fad". Some day humanity will touch the starts. This "passing fad" will be required to get us there and to survive when we arrive (no factories to crank out ammonium nitrate). Without you, there will be no Mars or Moon colonies either. Didn't realize you were a Star Girl, did you? (By the way, we have to solve the microbes in the soil problem before starting a Moon colony, unless we want to fly every bit of food up there. At least we could use the soil, unlike on Mars.)

Me personally, I think every family should have their own doctor, their own dentist, and their own farmer.

This may just be me getting all Fuzzy Lovey, but I think there is something special about knowing the folks that grow your food -- looking them in the eyes and saying this or that was "so" good and "thank you"!

-T

I will share my moon cheese with you. David doesn't get any.

[Todd]

Oh, and I almost forgot. NO MOON CHEESE FOR YOU!

[Pat Kiewicz]

Scientists are notoriously irreligious, compared to the general population.

97% of climate scientists agree that the climate is changing and that human activities are part of that.

What I freely admit is debatable is what can or should be done as a response to the fact that the climate is measurably changing, and that human activity has had an effect.

But beyond that...

There is a finite amount of exploitable gas and oil (we have reached the point where extreme measures* must be taken to extract those fuels), so the carbon era will not go on forever. This energy shift will happen whether or not you accept scientific concensus on climate change. The sooner we wean ourselves from a carbon-based energy economy the better, for a host of reasons that have nothing to do with climate change but have everything to do with some of the economic forces that support climate change denial (Koch Industries, for example).

See:

*whatever your opinion on fracking for gas, the massive efforts needed to extract oil from tar sands, drilling in the extremely deep ocean or above the Arctic Circle, I think it must be admitted that we are going to extreme lengths to continue to extract oil and gas.

RE: topic

Still no ripening heirloom tomatoes, but the vines are green and healthy and all of them have set fruit.

[Pat Kiewicz]

HB, that was completely uncalled for.

[Drew Lawson]

I picked my first Black Plum (2" plums) about a week ago. Last night I picked about a pint. There are dozens hanging there taunting me by being almost ripe. Push come to shove, they'd probably already taste better than the ones in the store.

On the other hand, the Amish Paste are just starting to turn. Previous experience is that they take forever to ripen.

Federle are loaded with funky looking fruit, but also staying mainly green. Oddly enough, those vines also are staying short. I doubt they are determinant, but they've yet to reach the 3 foot mark. (Some of the Black Plum are getting to 6 foot.)

The new growth (and regrowth) is all healthy. The Leaf Spot infected leaves haven't all died off yet, so I'm not sure what the final toll will be.

I just may get pasta sauce canned this year.

[Todd]

Hi Pat,

No so much when their government funding will be cut off if they don't tote the line.

A good example, or rather a bad example, would be all the funding for cholesterol testing. There is no evidence whatsoever from autopsy studies that links serum cholesterol with arteriosclerosis. It would be funny, if the side effects of the drugs weren't hurting so many people. Basically, follow the money.

Uh. This is a really bad study. Ocean temperatures have been cooling for the last 11 years. This is another government funded study. The results are often predetermined when the source of your funding has an agenda.

The tip of was the 97% number. Sort of like a Soviet election were 97% all voted for the communists. (The other 3% were sent to mental institutions or Siberia.) You can never find that kind of consensus with anything.

Here are some a non-government funded analysis of the 97% number (Skeptical Science calls it a myth):

Basically, more number fudging. This isn't science, this is ideology.

Here is a much more believable analysis on ocean temperatures:

If you look at comment #87, the ideologues knees jerked pretty hard.

-T

[Higgs Boson]

It was a hysterical reaction (unusual for me) to Joseph's comment:

---------- "When folks start using Political

----------

Set aside for a moment "political correctness to push their theory... At first, seeking to link the term "denier", as in Global Warming/Climate c hange denier -- which is what we were talking about -- to religion, I thoug ht it was from Christian theology -- apostles "denied", etc. Then, while h anging laundry this morning - who knows why synopses open? -- it occurred ( sp)to me that poster might have been referring to "Holocaust denier". Both would have religious connotations.

Since I am not in poster's mind I don't know why he made this (apparent) li nkage.

But since I am in a state of active terror re: future of civil liberties un dermined by pre-Vatican II SCOTUS majority in Hobby Lobby and subsequent Wh eaten College decision, I displaced some of that on poster when I saw (inex plicable?) religion linkage.

Perhaps poster would care to explain?

HB

HB

[Todd]

To quote someone else:

A skeptic can be convinced by the evidence. A denier cannot be convinced regardless of the evidence.

AND - YOU - AIN'T - GOT - SQUAT. You even CHEATED by fabricating research.

"Denier" is a religious term and meant to insult skeptics.

[josephkk]

Count the indents, then you may properly identify your target. And perhaps respond to what was actually posted by the specific posters.

?-)

[Pat Kiewicz]

I've tried various "black" tomatoes, and just find the taste to be "off" in some way. I don't think it is just the color. I know I can smell and taste things that not all people can, from experiments* involving taste in high-school science class and from observation of how other people perceive various flower aromas. (Bradford pear flowers have a strong and horrible smell to me and my daughter while other people barely notice a slight floral scent.)

*experiments like this:

[Pat Kiewicz]

Of course, the increasing influx of meltwater from the Greenland ice sheet or Antarctica or the loss of long-term sea ice might have something to do with that.

"Willis said the findings have significant implications for global sea-level rise. 'Average sea level goes up partly due to warming and thermal expansion of the oceans and partly due to runoff from melting glaciers and ice sheets,' Willis said. 'The recent cooling episode suggests sea level should have actually decreased in the past two years. Despite this, sea level has continued to rise. This may mean that sea level rise has recently shifted from being mostly caused by warming to being dominated by melting. This idea is consistent with recent estimates of ice-mass loss in Antarctica and accelerating ice-mass loss on Greenland,' he said."

html

And if NASA has an "agenda" it's certainly not designed to keep the big money rolling in from the (Republican controlled) Congress!

The article you linked to at skepticalscience.com actual supports climate change.

"Claims that the ocean has been cooling are correct. Claims that global warming has stopped are not. It is an illogical position: the climate is subject to a lot of natural variability, so the premise that changes should be ?monotonic? ? temperatures rising in straight lines ? ignores the fact that nature doesn?t work like that. This is why scientists normally discuss trends ? 30 years or more ? so that short term fluctuations can be seen as part of a greater pattern. (Other well-known cyclic phenomena like El Nino and La Nina play a part in these complex interactions)."

And yes, I looked at the comments thread. I have rarely found them to contain more than name calling, bickering, or the endless repetition of arguments that have been made and rebutted.

It's not just NASA and climate scientists who are taking notice. Have you ever looked at really old family pictures taken on Decoration Day (May 31, the traditional Memorial Day) and been surprised by how bare the trees were? I have.

Henry David Thoreau's records of the phenology of Walden Pond can be used to compare then and now.

"Today, nearly 160 years later, Thoreau's detailed observations form the basis of a long-term study of how climate change is altering the timing of seasonal biological events--or phenology--and how such shifts may in turn impact the wildlife and wild places of an entire region. Researchers from Boston University have assembled a vast array of biological data-- arboretum specimens, old photographs and the observations of local citizens, in addition to Thoreau's journals--to produce a baseline of springtime events for the Concord area. Comparing these data to the results of their own exhaustive, five-year effort to walk, literally, in Thoreau's footsteps, the scientists can now tell a story that New England's favorite naturalist-philosopher might never have imagined: As Massachusetts warms, flowers are blooming, trees are leafing out, and birds are arriving as many as three weeks earlier than they did in the mid-nineteenth century. 'If Thoreau were alive today, he would be very concerned about this,' says Richard Primack, a biology professor at Boston University and lead researcher on the project."

[Drew Lawson]

Except that he'd be 197 years old, and mainly concerned about when the jello will be served. Either that, of shouting for those damned kids to get away from his pond.

[Todd]

Hi Pat,

Except that sea levels are not rising and Arctic ice is all over on the Russian side. Arctic ice flows follow a pattern. And low Arctic ice on our side has happened several times before. This is all normal.

For the amount of Greenland ice to affect sea levels would probably have to reach the moon. Think eye dropper and swimming pool. Not to mention the earth quakes it would cause as the crust snapped back after all the weight was released. Seen any reports of that?

Sorry, still skeptical. Doesn't help that the ideologues got caught cheating and they sell their wares with religious extremist terms. And, none of their models are able to predict anything. And they refuse open discussions.

I like Skeptical Science. They actually have open discussions. And NASA works for the President, not congress. Add to that, you are at great risk of losing your job, if you don't tote the company line.

If I were to speculate, I would posit that the non-ideological based 206 year solar cycle research will hit the mark a lot closer than the ideologues. Then again, they don't want your money, your life style, your freedom, your faith ...

-T

[Boron Elgar]

NOAA disagrees with you.

and Arctic ice is

You may be confusing the top and bottom of our world.

Into the bozo bin with you. If you cannot provide standard accepted scientific facts, then just STFU.

Really.

Boron