Green potatoes

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Interesting response from someone who advicates more hybridization of our food crops.

Perhaps you can show me a cite for a means to raise cattle that produces anywhere the same calories/acre that grain does. Without that, your proposal still reduces the effective food supply.

Cows can be frost tollerant, at least. Do you have any other suggestions that can work in North Dakota or Alberta? High fat crops have a tendency to be tropical. One exception is nuts, which won't work for the increasing segment with nut allergies. The other exceptions are grains (source of most vegetable oils), which you denounce.

I thought he was in Oz, though I have trouble keeping track of things like that.

*You* are proposing that non-grain produce can replace grains, with equal food value, using the same crop land, as a global practice. I don't see it as unfair to ask you to specify which crops have this potential.

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Drew Lawson I had planned to be dead by now, but
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On 06/12/2014 09:55 AM, Drew Lawson wrote:

You are not following. All produce we eat has been hybridized for one thing or another.
When I say "test tube", I mean synthetic. Not found in nature.
I also include in that "gene splicing" (a.k.a GMO). When you hybridize a plant, you are doing it the old fashioned way. Not splicing genes from a weasel onto a dove.

You missed the point. On soil that won't grow anything else other than cellulose (grass), grow cows (livestock) on it. Use the good soil to grow other stuff.
Every summer out here in Nevada, since the Fed took over managing it from the ranchers, we have range land fires. Some of the localities bring in sheep to mow the cheat grass off the hill sides to help prevent these fires. AND YOU GET TO EAT THEM AFTERWARDS! It is a good use of land that would not otherwise grow anything edible. (Lamb -- YUK! Okay, other gets to eat them.)
-T
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On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 17:32:50 -0400

Using wiki as the source...
Total world land mass is estimated to be 57,505,693.767 sq mi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land
and the total world population is estimated at 7.169 billion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population
So using some math, correctly I hope:
57505693.767 / 7169000000 = 0.00802143866187752825 sq miles
0.0080214 sq miles = 5.256939 acres per person.
And that is counting all land mass, some which would be hard to inhabit if at all. It just won't work, too many people...
--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
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When you switch that land from growing grain to grazing cattle, you reduce the yield in terms of calories/acre. The world still has billions of people to feed, and you have just reduced the food supply. Where do you make up that deficit?
I much prefer steak to bread, but I'm not as comfortable as you appear to be with suggesting that we willfully require others to starve.
Remember, this whole subthread started with you saying that we should stop farming grain, and David asking how you suggest feeding the 7 billion humans without grain. You have yet to address that question.
I'm happy for you that you like your new diet and lifestyle. However, that does not address the question.
--
Drew Lawson | Savage bed foot-warmer
| of purest feline ancestry
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On 06/12/2014 12:46 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

You are still missing what I said. Were the land won't support other things, grow grass for livestock. I thought I was pretty clear on that point. Don't use the good farm land for livestock!

Where are you getting that I want people to starve? I don't want anyone to starve! This is one of those arguments where the news reporter asks, "So, when was the last time you beat your wife?"
By the way, I think sustainable crops produce higher yields on the same real estate. Meaning more food. (Tastes better too.) And, if argibusiness is not careful, all that land they are currently using right now will go dead and not be able to produce anything.
By the way, sustainable farmers take that burned out land (soil) and nurture it back to health. It takes years. Songbird can probably fill you in on the details. In the mean time, the land is not producing.
So, you are in favor of burning out all our soil? Why is it again that you want people to starve? (Just pointing out the fallacy of your argument. I know you don't.)

My suggestion is that we cut back on the things that cause T2 Diabetes and substitute them with safer things.
The things I eat work fine. Do you need a list? You will find them at any grocery store's produce section. Some you have to go to specialty stores, like Mexican Supermarkets.

I think we need to deliberately try to hybridize towards fat and away from carbs. In the mean time, you can grow all kinds of other things on land that wheat grows on. Let a free and open market dictate what.
In the Philippines, where they are not fat, exercise A LOT, eat rice, and consequently have a T2 Diabetes problem, they are trying to transition to a special type of corn.
http://balita.ph/2013/07/29/corn-for-diabetics-great-alternative-to-rice-research-prof/
By the way, I asked, and that variety of corn is not available in the United States.
And, I am not trying to rip that piece of pizza out of your mouth. I am trying to keep your feet from falling off. T2 Diabetes will come under control when we get the carbs back to a natural level.
-T
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Sure, a list would be great. List the foods that will take the place of grain in the global food system. Remember that grain is essentially non-perishable. It can be shipped on slow-moving ships, and handle long, unrefrigerated, transit to where the people are.
If you can't do that, then people will starve.

What are these "all kinds" of food? They need to grow in the same climates as grain, and handle the same soil types and water requirements. They also need to produce on average the same calories/acre as grain. Otherwise, you cannot meet the current food demand, and people will starve.
The market does not decide what will grow where.

That article says nothing about "a special type of corn," unless you consider white corn to be special. The article is about switching from rice to corn.

Asked who? Which variety?
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the schedule slipped, they do that.
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On 06/12/2014 02:07 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Off the top of my head: tomatoes (love the heirlooms), avocados, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, asparagus, broccoli, pruslane, summer squash (zukes), eggplant, jicama, nopalas, peppers (all kinds), blueberries, raspberries, boysenberries (if I can find them), lemons, onions, garlic, shallots. Probably more.
I am trying to grow tomantillos. (I probably misspelled half of the above.)

Hi Drew,
Googling that is like googling the word "it". Tons of hits on how to grow wheat, including in your own back yard. Not to waste too much time on it, I found various links. They are not real good, so I wouldn't spend too much time on them, if at all:
http://www.noble.org/ag/soils/croprotation/ http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Tutorials/Wheat_farming http://www.organicgrains.ncsu.edu/altgrainprod/altgraincrops.htm http://southwestfarmpress.com/grains/canola-growing-alternative-crop
I am sure there are a lot of others hidden under how to grow wheat, whose hits are in the hundreds.
We grow onions for seed out here and are starting to grow garlic. Not sure if it is for seed. You could easily use that land for something else. Wonderful smell when you drive by those fields. They could grow wheat too, but then they'd probably go broke.
Let the market decide what is grown. Wheat allergies are becoming more of a pain in the ass for a lot of people, not just celiacs. And they are finding it is not only the glutin, but wheat in general.
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/does-gluten-have-any-effect-on-non-celiacs/
Have you ever heard of crop rotation? If only wheat could grow on that land, how would you rotate? I mainly base my opinion on just looking over the fruited plains. All kinds of stuff mixed in with the wheat. Also, sustainable farmers take these burned out wheat fields and grow lots of other stuff on them.

You grow what you can sell. So, I have to disagree to an extent. There are obvious limitations of what you can grow where. But very few soils can only grow one thing. There is no such thing as soil that can only grow wheat.

I researched it months ago. I came up with the type of corn they wanted to switch to and called a few seed companies. I think Burpee was one, but I don't recall. Talked to some very nice people. Sorry for the lack of information. If you are interesting in growing the stuff, I am sure you could probably figure it out too.
Burpee's sweet corns taste like candy they are so sweet. I mean the ones I grew years ago were so, so sweet! I think most of Burpee's emphasis is on those varieties (Diabetes be damned).
-T
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Uh, no.
It's not just David and Fran. I wonder how you can type and keep your bottom in the chair.
All that hand waving should have you airborne.
--
Dan Espen

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On 06/12/2014 06:16 PM, Dan.Espen wrote:

Two words: BUNJI CORDS!
Tried duct tape, but it is too hard to remove.
:-)
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On 13/06/2014 11:16 AM, Dan.Espen wrote:

:-)) Indeed. He never gets it or seemingly even tries.
His standard response is that it's our fault not his, just as his T2 diabetes is because of a conspiracy that made him and others eat carbs and he had no responsibility at all for what he put in his mouth over a lifetime of eating. I beginning to think that a plonk would be the best solution.
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On 06/12/2014 11:36 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

<ToddSpeak> I was following what the special interests said. Whole grains, healthy carbs, low fat. Did a bunch of walking. Carbs good; fat bad. I thought I was doing what I was suppose to do.
I now know, except for the walking part, that it was total B*** S***. My "fault" was whom I chose to believe.
And apparently you will have to get injured yourself before you stop with the fat bigotry. Fat and lazy. That would explain all the skinny, active folks who also get injured. Also explains the third world, where they eat far less and move far more. Yup. Fat and Lazy. Nothing to do with carbs. Absolutely NOTHING! Fat and Lazy.
Excess carbs in are like the "elephant in the living room" no one wants acknowledge.
And I said "corruption" not "conspiracy".
"Healthy carbs" my ass.
</ToddSpeak>
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Glad to have the confirmation that you are a performance art performer. I was puzzled at how you could be so dense.
--
|Drew Lawson | If you're not part of the solution |
| | you're part of the precipitate. |
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Thank you for at least admitting that you do not know anything.

If you need google, then you are just talking out your ass.

You have an interesting tendency to post links to one or two sites, and nothing else. Sounds like a "cult of personality" more with each iteration.

You have been asked what else to grow.
You avoid answering.

And yet, you cannot come up with a name to report.
You, sir (if I have the gender correct) are a liar.

Again, it is entertaining that an anti-GMO "person" would be dealing with Burpee.

I am, or was, interested in whether your claims were pulled out of your ass.
You have confirmed that they were.
David was correct. You aren't worth the bits to send replies.
I had hoped you had details, rather than being a windbag with assertions (and conspiracies) but no substance.
Much like the political party that I disagree with -- I keep hoping for a gadfly with substantial claims, to keep my side in-line. But all I ever get is hand-waving and vacuous claims -- just like you.

--
Drew Lawson What would Brian Boitano do?

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On 06/12/2014 08:00 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

Did I call you any names? Manners.
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On 13/06/2014 1:00 PM, Drew Lawson wrote:

:-)) A very reasonable conclusion in the circumstances.
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On 06/13/2014 06:13 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

And you ran out of names to call those your don't understand or don't agree with.
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Fran Farmer wrote:

Part of the problem with zealots is there are no nuances, no details, no shading, no compromises. You are either with them entirely or agin 'em.
I don't think that a food system based on broad acre farming with big inputs from fertiliser derived from fossil fuel is ideal in the long run either. However, the idea of quitting grains altogether for ideological reasons is mad.
The biggest danger to this world is not diet, climate-change, starvation, asteroid-strike, Murdock or Godlessness. Its Toddthink.
David
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On 06/13/2014 05:08 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Has a nice ring to it.
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On 13/06/2014 10:08 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Yep.

Nope, not with increasingly limited resources. The way I see most people driving I wonder if they've ever heard of 'peak oil' and what the downstream consequences are stemmign form that.
And you too would be conscious of all those years of applications of Super.......
However, the idea of quitting grains altogether for ideological

:-)) Conspiracy and paranoia can be great fun if it's done in jest but when it's expounded in a serious way then, IMO, there should at least be some sane or reasoned basis for it.
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I'll let those older than me do the stronger comparisons of current lifestyles with those in the '40s. But even comparing with the '60s, when there were already grumblings about sedentary lifestyles, is pretty signifigant.
My memories of the late '60s, in US small cities and suburbs, have far more people walking. Households often only had a single car, and days were run accordngly. There was very little shuttling kids here and there. Kids walked or rode their bikes.
And other details that seem minor probably had a lot of effect. I don't recall elevators much, except in the taller or fancier buildings. Anything 2 story just had stairs.
The first shopping mall I dealt with was in 1973. Freshly opened, there was one escalator, and several sets of stairs. The only stairs in my local mall now are more for show than anything else. (They frame a central atrium.)
In my view, a lot of the trend toward obesity came in very small steps like those. That along with more convenience. I can park close to things now, so I walk less. Etc.
And, of course, cheaper bulk food helped drive our personal bulk.

The reason I referenced WW2 is that it seems to be a standard turning point, at least for US agriculture. All of the industrial build up and advancement of the war got turned to post-war use. We took improvements for tanks and made bigger tractors. The oil demand of the war drove expanding the supply, and an eventual outcome was expansion of the petrochemical industry.
I probably have some of that wrong, but that's my general impression.
--
Drew Lawson
"Please understand that we are considerably less interested
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