Glyphosate

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If I have some raised gardens with vegies in them and grass weeds start growing can I carefully paint the weed with glyphosate without affecting the vegies?
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F Murtz wrote:

No matter how carefully you apply glyphosate as the 'weed' dies the chemical will dissolve into the soil and affect your vegetable plants, and you when you eat them, if you get any. You can mulch but weeding crops is always a physical chore; sweat/labor. My garden is 50' X 50' on the ground, during the growing season I use weed block cloth as much as possible, the quality grades will last 15-20 years... after fall tilling I cover every sq in with cloth for winter... saves a tremendous amount of weeding come spring when weeds emerge prolifically before the ground is dry enough to work.
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On 04/11/2014 15:48, Brooklyn1 wrote:

I am sure that with such specific claims you will be happy to provide numerous links which support your statements.
--

Jeff

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On 11/4/2014 11:29 AM, Jeff Layman wrote:

Glyphosate decomposes into harmless residue in 3-5 days after it is applied.
I generally avoid using glyphosate because it is hard to keep it away from plants I do not want to kill. That is why I suggested a grass-specific herbicide to the originator of this thread.
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
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On 11/4/2014 2:29 PM, Jeff Layman wrote:

Environmental Fate: Soil
The median half-life of glyphosate in soil has been widely studied; values between 2 and 197 days have been reported in the literature.7,48 A typical field half-life of 47 days has been suggested.4 Soil and climate conditions affect glyphosate's persistence in soil.1 See the text box on Half-life.
The "half-life" is the time required for half of the compound to break down in the environment.
1 half-life = 50% remaining 2 half-lives = 25% remaining 3 half-lives = 12% remaining 4 half-lives = 6% remaining 5 half-lives = 3% remaining
Half-lives can vary widely based on environmental factors. The amount of chemical remaining after a half-life will always depend on the amount of the chemical originally applied. It should be noted that some chemicals may degrade into compounds of toxicological significance. Glyphosate is relatively stable to chemical and photo decomposition.6 The primary pathway of glyphosate degradation is soil microbial action, which yields AMPA and glyoxylic acid. Both products are further degraded to carbon dioxide.3 Glyphosate adsorbs tightly to soil. Glyphosate and its residues are expected to be immobile in soil.6
Water
The median half-life of glyphosate in water varies from a few days to 91 days.1 Glyphosate did not undergo hydrolysis in buffered solution with a pH of 3, 6, or 9 at 35 °C. Photodegradation of glyphosate in water was insignificant under natural light in a pH 5, 7, and 9 buffered solution.58,59 Glyphosate in the form of the product Roundup® was applied to aquatic plants in fresh and brackish water. Glyphosate concentrations in both ponds declined rapidly, although the binding of glyphosate to bottom sediments depended heavily on the metals in the sediments. If chelating cations are present, the sediment half-life of glyphosate may be greatly increased.60 Glyphosate has a low potential to contaminate groundwater due to its strong adsorptive properties. However, there is potential for surface water contamination from aquatic uses of glyphosate and soil erosion.6 Volatilization of glyphosate is not expected to be significant due to its low vapor pressure.6
Air
Glyphosate and all its salts are very low in volatility with vapor pressures ranging from 1.84 x 10-7 mmHg to 6.75 x 10-8 mmHg at 25 °C.1,4,8 Glyphosate is stable in air.1
Plants
Glyphosate is absorbed by plant foliage and transported throughout the plant through the phloem.3 Glyphosate absorption across the cuticle is moderate, and transport across the cell membrane is slower than for most herbicides.4 Because glyphosate binds to the soil, plant uptake of glyphosate from soil is negligible.3 Glyphosate accumulates in meristems, immature leaves, and underground tissues.4 Very little glyphosate is metabolized in plants, with AMPA as the only significant degradation product.3 Lettuce, carrots, and barley contained glyphosate residues up to one year after the soil was treated with 3.71 pounds of glyphosate per acre.61,62 Glyphosate had a median half-life of 8 to 9 days in leaf litter of red alder and salmonberry sprayed with Roundup®.48
Indoor
All surface wipe and dust samples collected from five farm households in Iowa contained detectable levels of glyphosate ranging from 0.0081-2.7 ng/cm2. In six non-farm households, 28 out of 33 samples collected contained detectable levels of glyphosate ranging from 0.0012-13 ng/cm2.63
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On 11/4/2014 9:48 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Glyphosate is deactivated upon contact with soil, idiot.
To the OP: Glyphosate applied directly to the plants you wish to kill is fine. I find it simpler to apply it by hand. I put a heavy plastic/rubber/nitrile glove on my hand, cover that with a cheap cotton glove, and dip it into a bowl containing glyphosate. Then I grab the weed with the gloved hand and stroke it. It gets a good application without dripping or runoff. When I'm done, the gloves go into the trash.
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On 11/4/2014 6:31 AM, F Murtz wrote:

There are herbicides that are specific to grass. These are intended to kill grass without harming other plants.
Go to a nursery or hardware store and read the label. Some kill only certain kinds of grass.
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
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On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 19:29:10 +0000, Jeff Layman

I don't need links to support my own opinions based on many years of vegetable gardening... you who are who needs links to support your opinions if you even have any.
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On 05/11/2014 01:55, Brooklyn1 wrote:

Oh, I am sorry - I was mistaking your opinions for facts. How silly of me. Opinions, eh? Not even observations. There's nothing like an armchair critic for telling others how it really is.
Why don't you read Frank's reply for some facts rather than opinions, and then refer any future postings on the subject to that reply. Then the poster can make up their own mind whether or not to use glyphosate (or anything else for that matter).
--

Jeff

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On 11/4/2014 7:55 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

If you're going to provide advice, you need to be able to support it with facts. You're entitled to provide opinions, but those should be labeled as such.
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On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 15:32:24 -0800, "David E. Ross"

You were asked to supply numerous links in support of your claim, I see none.
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On 05/11/2014 01:57, Brooklyn1 wrote:

No, I asked /you/ to support your claims, not David to support his.
--

Jeff

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F Murtz wrote:

is this a current problem or a hypothetical future problem?
i would not use glyphosate for any application near veggies or otherwise.
it isn't benign and is persisting and accumulating in spite of what the manufacturer claims.
if the grass infestation is minor pull them out or dig them out (making sure to get all the roots), if you're able to consider painting each weed you should be able to pull the weeds out, it will probably be much faster.
if it is major, trim off as much of the green stuff as you can and then smother it with a few layers of cardboard and mulch, absolutely no light or gaps can be left because that is all the grass needs and believe me it will find a way through.
raised beds on or near a grassy area should be set up properly to prevent grass incursions. weed barrier fabric underneath, keeping the edges neatly trimmed (don't point your mower chute at the gardens, don't string trim knocking grass seeds into the garden, etc.). often it is better to extend the weed barrier out from the raised bed and to mulch that area also making it less likely for grass to be near the gardens.
also, make sure when you add organic materials to the raised beds that it is properly composted or certified to be weed/grass seed free. cow or horse manure may not be composted well enough, same thing with grass clippings sucked up by lawn mowers (never use this stuff unless you want a lot of weeds in your gardens, it must be hot pile composted first). i often bury things in the gardens, but before i do that i make sure it isn't full of seeds and if it has roots i make sure those roots are well dried out so they cannot resprout.
songbird
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ongbird wrote:

All excellent suggestions. However even taking every precaution weeds will come/gardening is work. Also I once had the not so bright idea to cover large sections of my garden with cardboard and to leave it over winter... made a wonderful home for voles... among other plants they ate the roots on my blueberry bushes and rug junipers... got all the blueberries to heal but for three, the once gorgeous rug junipers are no more. For mulching a vegetable garden I strongly suggest weed block cloth, voles don't seem to find it attractive to make their homes, but they love cardboard and they also like wood chips especially pine bark nuggets. Once the subteranean critters establish a home they don't like to move and I refuse to use poison... sometimes pouring ordinary household ammonia into their entries repels them but not permanently. These work very well for me: (Amazon.com product link shortened) I have four in my vegetable garden and a half dozen around my house amongst the foundation plantings, they've been working unfailingly for nigh on seven years... I think the solar version is a lot better than changing batterys. They don't recommend leaving them in the ground where freezing and snow occurs but I do with no problem, I just push them in so that 3" extends above ground. Considering how long they last and how well they work $20 per is cheap.
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On 11/5/2014 12:39 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

I hate to burst your bubble but the above mentioned devices use 3 D batteries that must be changed every so often.
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wrote:

Amazon placed the wrong text for the Solar Spikes... they take rechargeable batteries (supplied), they also make the Non-solar type that need D cells changed... go here: http://www.wrsweeney.com/mole_gopher_products.php http://www.victorpest.com/store/mole-and-gopher-control/s7915 Lowe's sells them too, that's where I discovered them and bought my first two... next trip they were sold out so I ordered from Amazon.
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On Wed, 05 Nov 2014 15:39:52 -0500, Brooklyn1

Apparently they now make a Pro version of Solar Spike (see above) that you can insert the rechargeable batterys but I have the original that come with rechargeable batterys already inserted and cannot be accessed. Next time I will try the Pro version, as they say those cover a much larger area. I know they work, at least here in my soil (apparently they don't work well in dry/sandy soil). A few weeks after I set the solar spikes out the voles moved over to my neighbor's yard over 1,000 feet away.
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Brooklyn1 wrote: ...

yep. i like to make the work as easy and as multi layered as possible. the soil here really can use all the organic materials i can put down.

once in a while i'll see a vole, but not that often, instead we have a good population of chipmunks and mice around and that seems to keep the feral cats and the neighbor's outdoor cats well fed.
songbird
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wrote:

I have indoor cats but I have a whole community of ferral cats that I feed in my barn, mostly they prefer what they kill, most won't eat cat food. They live in my barn because I supply heated houses, it gets down into the minus twentys and thirties here in winter. Heating the houses costs very little (40 watts) but the heat keeps them alive... and I make sure there is always food and water... I have heated water bowls too. Today I set up a second heated house. The population is growing. I trap as many as I can and bring them to the Vet to be fixed but most can't be caught. The cats are left behind when summer people leave, they leave dogs too but dogs have very poor survival skills so don't last long. The cats are much better at surviving and form communities. Most of the locals feed the feral cats, this is a farming commuity, the cats earn their keep.
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On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 19:29:10 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote:

Brooklyn may not wish to make observations of / for his posts.
However to assist you and Moe DeLoughan who from your posts I assume to be Monsanto stooges / strawmen, I suggest that visitors to this post Google themselves variations of "Monsanto, Roundup, Spain, contaminations degradations"
One will lead to this extract:
"Monsanto, the world leader in the production of genetically engineered (GE) staple crops, has long claimed that its broad-spectrum herbicide Roundup is safe.
In fact, they have even used the following slogans to describe it:
"It's Safer than Mowing" "Biodegradable" "Environmentally Friendly"
What we are now finding out -- unfortunately long after hundreds of millions of pounds of the chemical have already been applied to U.S. soil -- is that Roundup is proving to be a pervasive environmental threat, one that may already be poisoning a good portion of the world's remaining natural water supply.
Roundup is Contaminating Groundwater Supplies
The quantity of glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, in the environment has been difficult to analyze due to its physicochemical properties, such as its relatively low molecular weight and low organic solvent solubility.
However, a recent study used a magnetic particle immunoassay to test for the presence of glyphosate in roughly 140 samples of groundwater from Catalonia, Spain.
The analysis found that glyphosate was present above the limit of quantification in 41 percent of the samples. As noted on GreenMedInfo.com, this indicates "that, despite manufacturer's claims, it does not break down rapidly in the environment, and is accumulating there in concerning quantities."
Groundwater, which is water from rain, lakes, streams or other bodies of water that soaks into soil and bedrock, can easily become contaminated when chemicals in the soil with low biodegradability and high mobility empty into it.
When groundwater is used as a drinking water source, this contamination poses a risk to animals, plants and humans alike. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) explains further:
"Contaminated groundwater can hurt animals, plants, or humans only if it is first removed from the ground by manmade or natural processes. In many parts of the world, groundwater is pumped out of the ground so it can be used as a source of water for drinking, bathing, other household uses, agriculture, and industry. In addition, groundwater can reach the surface through natural pathways such as springs.
Contaminated groundwater can affect the quality of drinking and other types of water supplies when it reaches the surface. Contaminated groundwater can affect the health of animals and humans when they drink or bathe in water contaminated by the groundwater or when they eat organisms that have themselves been affected by groundwater contamination."
That glyphosate has been detected beyond the limit of quantification in 41 percent of groundwater samples tested reveals yet another concerning "side effect" of its rampant use: namely, that it is not biodegrading in the soil, as previously assumed by many scientists, rather, is trickling down below the soil to the groundwater, where processes of biodegradation are much slower, and the opportunity for it to accumulate to toxic levels is much greater. These findings have devastating environmental and human health implications, as glyphosate is the most widely used herbicide in the world and is being found virtually everywhere it has been tested"
The full text of which is available at: <http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/01/10/herbicide- poison-groundwater-supply.aspx
Other URLs of interest for those who do not wish to do their own research may be:
<http://www.gardenguides.com/130007-soil-toxicity-roundup.html <http://www.motherjones.com/tom-philpott/2011/08/monsantos-roundup- herbicide-soil-damage> <https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid 061018160356AAmxbwP> <https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid 061018160356AAmxbwP> <http://permaculturenews.org/2012/11/01/why-glyphosate-should-be-banned-a- review-of-its-hazards-to-health-and-the-environment/> <http://www.naturalnews.com/035221_Roundup_soil_health_food_supply.html <https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid 080609044206AAviMAf> <http://farmingsweetbay.wordpress.com/2011/12/17/getting-roundup-out-of- our-farms-soil/> <https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid 080920164829AAmjP5b> #*#* <http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/un-earthed-monsantos-glyphosate- destroying-soil> <http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/jan10/ scientists_find_negative_impacts_of_GM_crops.php> Linked to Parkinson's disease
<http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/27/monsantos-roundup-found-in-75-of-air-and- rain-samples/>
False advertising:
<http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/56554
Honey Bee starvation
<http://www.gmoevidence.com/location/roundup-evidence/
Damages pigs:
<http://permaculturenews.org/2014/05/06/roundup-damages-pigs-banned- danish-farmer/>
That gives a balanced view, though it does not necessarily support the views and assertions of messrs Layman and DeLoughan
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