Some years back Malathion was withdrawn from garden use in the UK,
and afaik throughout Europe, because sufficient research on its garden
usage had not been done, and no manufacturer would invest the money to
As we all know, Doug has always been a expert gardner. He has never
been a neophyte and has never made any mistakes and has never had any
questions. Anyone who cannot meet these standards is not welcome in
No, paghat, Doug Kanter did not say: I think he said that the best general
purpose insecticide is the thumb & index finger. - Please quote correctly.
Doug Kanter said:
Anyone older than 15 who is not aware of the dangers of pesticides should
not be allowed to leave their bedroom. Ever.
What arrogance! Maybe he should apply as a guard at Guantanamo Bay or any
other concentration camp.
I bet he meant to say "should not be allowed to leave their bedroom ever
without their thumb & an index finger."
Unless he meant "should be locked in their bedroom while the whole house
is tented & gassed for termites."
A snotty jest on UseNet comparable to ignoring the Geneva Convention for
treatment of prisoners of war? That's the dumbest thing I've read since
some dumbass vegan posted that eating hamburgers is comparable to snuffing
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
Actually, Betty, I have made enough mistakes to fill a book. I know what I
don't know, I know when I need advice, and I *do* ask questions. But, since
1970 or so, when I began gardening, all anyone needed to do was open a
newspaper 20 times a year to notice that there are serious problems with
pesticides, and that their presence on the store shelves is absolutely no
indication that they are safe. Further, to ask about "how to kill ALL bugs"
indicates a level of ignorance that's truly surprising in this day and age.
To Doug: Huh? If you want to preach the gospel of organic pesticides,
you should offer advice based on your experience. Nobody wants to
spray chemicals around needlessly, but many of us have not found
methods that work within our limited time for the gardens and fruit
Well anyway, I like Sevin as a general insecticide. Sevin is very
effective against most garden pests and breaks down pretty fast. It
is not fungicidal though. It is also highly toxic to bees, lady bugs
predacious wasps and other beneficial insects. Don't use it where
bees are foraging. Use as the label directs, and not within 7 days of
harvest (14 days for leafy vegetables).
There was a backlash against Sevin when it was used in the gypsy moth
eradications programs in the northeast. This was based on hysteria
and not science. Still, one must be carefull with such chemicals.
this site has some useful pesticides fact sheets
Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side of the
There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled with organic
methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have
tried all the organic sprays and controls. I still utilize a combination of
methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have yet to
an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters. Like any
technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray
(fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill any
You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should
spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area.
You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not spray when
pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is getting on
with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to be clean,
you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have already
what sounds like heavy insect damage.
I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for example). It
contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of sprays are
meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious situation,
may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard spray
then see how it goes.
You may have had a better reception if you had gone to rec.gardens.edible, where
seems to be more people growing fruit.
"Walter R." wrote:
This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:
You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just with
regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have
not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're aware
Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the
instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way)
safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal
protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.
I will add another pest that cannot be controlled by organic methods
nor by unrestricted pesticides such as the Bonide Fruit Tree Spray.
That is the plum curculio which attacks not only plums, but also
apples, pears, peaches and nectarines.
Unrestricted pesticides used to contain a control for plum curculio
but that was removed from the formulae two years ago. The unlicensed
homeowner has no effective remedy for plum curculio, at least in my
state of New Hampshire.
That is one of the reasons I got an applicator's permit this year.
Imidan is an effective control for plum curculio but it is a
1) Use the pharmaceutical analogy. The only way to assure the safety of a
new drug is to test it on the target population, and even then, long term
effects can only be determined by waiting and seeing. Yard chemicals cannot
be tested in this way, at least not within the morals of this society. The
chemical companies themselves say that animal testing is irrelevant. Since
they cannot be tested on people, safety cannot be determined.
Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in
which an agricultural chemical
2) In the early 1970s, the chemical industry purchased legislation which
exempted a long list of so-called "inert ingredients" from what little
testing is done to begin with.
http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn/factsheets/facts&figures.htm This is a
summary for the layman, but with cites. This link will provide you with more
than enough other information to keep you busy for awhile:
The "inert" ingredients include quite a few things which are known, beyond
dispute, to be harmful to humans in some way. Toluene, for instance.
I'm not disputing what you say, in terms of what works on which pests, but I
do think it's irresponsible to suggest the use of ANY chemical to a person
who has not demonstrated the least bit of knowledge in terms of which bugs
he's trying to deal with. That, to me, is a prerequisite, and a crucial one.
It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple
maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else
works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch
sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from
Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come
up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the
same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He
strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed"
but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big
John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for
the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical
industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not
incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning
curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit
for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very
swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a
dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).
-paghat the ratgirl
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:08:47 -0700, firstname.lastname@example.org
as I have never written on that subject.
Please cite just one time that I have promoted "the right chemical for
the right job." Also, when I said anything about cowshit. You will
fail for I have never done either.
Some may praise paghat but she is is off the mark this time and has
demeaned me with false accusations. Bad paghat!
If I partially confused your error about plum curculio with Sherwin's
error about apple maggots, my apologies. When you made the untrue
statement about plum curculio, you called it "another" pest that required
synthetic chemicals to control. I assumed by "another" you were insisting
apple maggots as mentioned earlier in the thread required toxic sprays, &
"another" one that required it was plum curculio. If you had a third pest
in mind I missed it somehow.
I'll post the relevant information on plum curculio further below, it'll
make a good match for the citation-riddled data on organic control of
apple maggots I already provided. But your denying the cowshit post is
more fun just now:
If you never made the "farmy smell" post there must be two John Bachmans.
Ever since you or your evil twin posted about the glories of the farmy
smell of cow manure, Granny Artemis & I have incorporated the phrase
"ahhh, that lovely farmy smell!" as our recurring synonym for "cowshit"
every time we drive by a dairy. I just this minute did a google-groups
search on the phrase "farmy smell" to find out if I'd been miscrediting
that lovely discription of cowshit to the wrong fellow. I only got one
hit, & it certainly appears to be you saying how much you enjoy the "farmy
smell" of cow manure:
Having long ago lived next door to a dairy for a year, these sorts of
references stick in my memory. I may even write a cowshit article for
paghat.com someday, I've got many garden notes about cowshit just waiting
to organize. In fact I lived between a dairy & the now defunct Longacres
race track, & between the odors of horse shit & the cowshit, the horseshit
was sweeter, but to each his own. Why you wouldn't want to be admired for
liking the smell of cowshit best puzzles me. Even Garrison Keeler would
agree with you, in his spoof of a Copeland diddy, ending on the
sentimental lyric: "Proud and sure, cow manure, I know where I am," for
which I wish I possessed the entire lyrics.
I think I remember pretty correctly your recurring advocacies of the right
chemical properly used, though that certainly was not an exact quote as
"farmy smell" was. Maybe you just don't know how your advocacy sounds
sometimes. Very much in keeping with your post in this thread asserting
that following label instructions renders all pesticides totally safe --
that's just untrue. The reality is that "used as directed," pesticides &
herbicides have done great harm to watersheds & lakes & locally to Hood
Canal, it took no off-label use to do great harm. Used strictly as
directed, these chemicals have accumulative effects which label
instructions don't take into consideration, combining effects when other
chemicals are added into the garden mix according to THEIR directions, all
of which degrades or combines into still other chemicals, many
carcinogenic, none of those assessed before those misleading instructions
Indeed the labeling is vastly more for legal rather than safety concerns.
It did not surprise me that you expressed a profound & misguided faith in
labels which instruct that toxins be dumped in your immediate environment.
It doesn't mean I disrespect you the way i would disrespect a Monsanto
flack pretending to be a disinterested party as he obeys the company
dictate to muddle every argument, but on another level its sometimes more
annoying when reasonable people make unreasonable assertions.
Really I was responding to your untrue statement that "another pest" (I
assumed you meant in addition to the apple maggot that had just been
discussed in the thread) that cannot be controlled organically was plum
curculio. You were dead wrong but i weary sometimes of correcting that
sort of misinformation & so posted about your love of cowshit instead,
thinking myself amusing rather than bad for it.
Both those orchard pests are now pretty easily controlled organically.
That plum curulio was once believed to have no effective organic control
was disproven a good five years ago, when the final barriers hampering
organic orchards in the Northeast fell away (Pacific Nrthwest organic
orcharders didn't want the sudden competition & were sorry the
Northeasterners wised up).
Surround is approved as an organic pesticide. The effective ingredient of
Surround is natural clay kaolin (hard to call it "active" ingredient since
it is inert). Field trials overseen by Drs. Michael Glenn & Gary Puterka
of the USDA found that orchards that had been experiencing 20 to 30
percent damage from plum curculio dropped to .5 to 1% damage with
application of Surround. (It could well be that with broader organic
principles in place, even Surround would not be necessary, but commercial
orchards are by their nature not mixed-species environments so it's hard
to achieve the prophelactic balance that is easier in a more complex
community of gardened plants).
Now the chemical industry would prefer it if what you said were true, &
would want it noted that Surround does not kill anything at all, but only
suppresses sundry pests up to & including plum curculio. From a growers
point of view there really is no difference, except the well-protected
organic crop has a higher value than a crop from the chemical-dependent.
If I get a wee bit peevish about flat assertions that have no truth &
which misrepresent organic principles as weak or tepid & encouraging
pests, it's cuz it's annoying to see presumedly reasonable individuals
insisting on such falsehoods then advovating the use of harmful toxins as
completely safe safety when used responsibility & mistakenly insisting
there is no choice about it.
Invariably, as in the two examples presented in this thread by yourself &
Sherwin, there is always a choice. The decision to further toxify the
environment cannot possibly be arrived at responsibly when the first piece
of "reasoning" is that pests can't be organically controlled so there is
no choice. Frequently the organic choice is objectively the more effective
choice, & yet advocates of toxicity don't want the documentation of such
facts, won't read the science, & will rarely correct their story.
-paghat the ratgirl
Get your Paghat the Ratgirl T-Shirt here:
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:15:57 -0700, email@example.com
I made to a survey posted by a would-be book writer in 2000 caught
pighat's attention. Although the term "cowshit" was not used, cow
manure was, and I confessed a preference to the "farmy smell" of cow
vs other varieties.
I stand corrected and apologize to pighat for accusing her of making
While the label provides legal protection to the manufacturer if the
user misapplies the product, that is not a bad thing. The labels also
meet the requirements of the EPA for approval for use.
However, the labels also provide detailed instructions for the use of
the product in areas that I mentioned above and also with regard to
application in proximity to waterways, public water supplies and
I believe that if the restrictions are followed, the product can be
Surround does indeed provide effective control of plum curculio when
applied according to it's label. That requires reapplication after
every significant rain as Surround washes off easily and complete
coverage is essential.
It also necessary to use a large amount of surround to get effective
coverage 0.5#/gallon is recommended. That is a lot of material to
apply after every rain.
Will some homeowners use Surround effectively? Yes, some will.
I will stick with Imidan at the rate of 1#/50 gallons applied every 10
- 14 days and follow all of the other label instructions. Then I will
eat my perfect fruits with full confidence that it is safe to do so.
Not very reassuring, considering the following:
Basic Testing to Identify Chemical Hazards
"This chemical was not included in EPA's survey of basic testing data."
WSU Pesticide Information Center
Fact Sheet for Imidan
"Gowan, the registrant for Imidan, does not have the required toxicity data
to support a general use category in a residential setting for Imidan. EPA
has allowed a residential use for this SLN under the conditions that it be
labeled a restricted use product."
So, neither the EPA nor the manufacturer have complete data.
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