General purpose insecticide?

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Some years back Malathion was withdrawn from garden use in the UK, and afaik throughout Europe, because sufficient research on its garden usage had not been done, and no manufacturer would invest the money to do it.
Janet
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As we all know, Doug has always been a expert gardner. He has never been a neophyte and has never made any mistakes and has never had any questions. Anyone who cannot meet these standards is not welcome in his world.
Betty
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Betty Harris wrote:

Not including any of the original post in your reply kinda makes your post useless.
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Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
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I think he said that the best general purpose insecticide is the thumb & index finger.
-paghat the ratgirl
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No, paghat, Doug Kanter did not say: I think he said that the best general purpose insecticide is the thumb & index finger. - Please quote correctly.
Doug Kanter said:
Anyone older than 15 who is not aware of the dangers of pesticides should not be allowed to leave their bedroom. Ever.
What arrogance! Maybe he should apply as a guard at Guantanamo Bay or any other concentration camp.
Walter www.rationality.net -
wrote:

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I bet he meant to say "should not be allowed to leave their bedroom ever without their thumb & an index finger."
Unless he meant "should be locked in their bedroom while the whole house is tented & gassed for termites."

A snotty jest on UseNet comparable to ignoring the Geneva Convention for treatment of prisoners of war? That's the dumbest thing I've read since some dumbass vegan posted that eating hamburgers is comparable to snuffing Jews.
-paggers
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He or she probably meant that eating hamburgers is like eating what's left of:
Jimmy Hoffa
-- Jim Carlock Please post replies to newsgroup.
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Actually, Betty, I have made enough mistakes to fill a book. I know what I don't know, I know when I need advice, and I *do* ask questions. But, since 1970 or so, when I began gardening, all anyone needed to do was open a newspaper 20 times a year to notice that there are serious problems with pesticides, and that their presence on the store shelves is absolutely no indication that they are safe. Further, to ask about "how to kill ALL bugs" indicates a level of ignorance that's truly surprising in this day and age.

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Okay then, instead of bashing the OP, how about suggesting a responsible alternative?
Suzy O, Wisconsin, Zone 5

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On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 17:00:29 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

To Doug: Huh? If you want to preach the gospel of organic pesticides, you should offer advice based on your experience. Nobody wants to spray chemicals around needlessly, but many of us have not found methods that work within our limited time for the gardens and fruit trees.
To Walter:
Well anyway, I like Sevin as a general insecticide. Sevin is very effective against most garden pests and breaks down pretty fast. It is not fungicidal though. It is also highly toxic to bees, lady bugs predacious wasps and other beneficial insects. Don't use it where bees are foraging. Use as the label directs, and not within 7 days of harvest (14 days for leafy vegetables).
There was a backlash against Sevin when it was used in the gypsy moth eradications programs in the northeast. This was based on hysteria and not science. Still, one must be carefull with such chemicals. this site has some useful pesticides fact sheets http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/facts-slides-self/facts/gen-pubre-sevin.html
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snipped-for-privacy@localnet.com wrote:

Yes what. Not including any part of the original post makes your reply useless.
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Travis in Shoreline (just North of Seattle) Washington
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Now that we have heard from all the 'organics', lets hear the other side of the story.
There are certain insect pests that cannot be effectively controlled with organic methods. I know because I have been growing fruit for over 20 years and have tried all the organic sprays and controls. I still utilize a combination of organic methods, like trapping insects on sticky balls and dormant oil. I have yet to find an organic method to effectively control apple maggot, for starters. Like any other technique, spraying can be done correctly, or not. You should not spray insecticide (fungicide is ok) when your trees are in blossom. That indeed will kill any bees around. You should not locate your trees near your vegetable garden. You should spray on near windless days, so that it stays confined to your orchard area. You should wear protective gear, including breathing masks, and not spray when kids or pets are around. This all makes it sound a bit dangerous, but so is getting on the freeway with all the idiot drivers. If you want the majority of your fruit to be clean, you probably have to spray in your location, especially since you have already noticed what sounds like heavy insect damage.
I would recommend a general orchard spray (Bonide makes one, for example). It contains a combination of insecticides and fungicides. These types of sprays are meant to cover most orchard problems, but if you have a more serious situation, you may have to go to a specific spray which targets it. Try the orchard spray first, and then see how it goes.
You may have had a better reception if you had gone to rec.gardens.edible, where there seems to be more people growing fruit.
Good Luck,
Sherwin D.
"Walter R." wrote:

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This is all reasonable advice, but realize this:
You're giving it to someone who is completely in the dark, and not just with regard to gardening. So, it's important to point out garden chemicals have not been and can never be correctly tested for safety. I'm sure you're aware of that.
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:07:29 GMT, "Doug Kanter"

Nonsense. If the material is used in strict compliance to the instructions on the label (and it should not be used in any other way) safety is assured. Those instructions include dosages, personal protective equipment requirements and minimum re-entry intervals.
I will add another pest that cannot be controlled by organic methods nor by unrestricted pesticides such as the Bonide Fruit Tree Spray. That is the plum curculio which attacks not only plums, but also apples, pears, peaches and nectarines.
Unrestricted pesticides used to contain a control for plum curculio but that was removed from the formulae two years ago. The unlicensed homeowner has no effective remedy for plum curculio, at least in my state of New Hampshire.
That is one of the reasons I got an applicator's permit this year. Imidan is an effective control for plum curculio but it is a restricted product.
JMHO
John
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Nonsense.
1) Use the pharmaceutical analogy. The only way to assure the safety of a new drug is to test it on the target population, and even then, long term effects can only be determined by waiting and seeing. Yard chemicals cannot be tested in this way, at least not within the morals of this society. The chemical companies themselves say that animal testing is irrelevant. Since they cannot be tested on people, safety cannot be determined.
Note: Somewhere on the web, there *is* mention of one round of tests in which an agricultural chemical
2) In the early 1970s, the chemical industry purchased legislation which exempted a long list of so-called "inert ingredients" from what little testing is done to begin with. http://www.beyondpesticides.org/lawn/factsheets/facts&figures.htm This is a summary for the layman, but with cites. This link will provide you with more than enough other information to keep you busy for awhile: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=pesticide+inert+toxic+ingredients&btnG=Search
The "inert" ingredients include quite a few things which are known, beyond dispute, to be harmful to humans in some way. Toluene, for instance.
I'm not disputing what you say, in terms of what works on which pests, but I do think it's irresponsible to suggest the use of ANY chemical to a person who has not demonstrated the least bit of knowledge in terms of which bugs he's trying to deal with. That, to me, is a prerequisite, and a crucial one.
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It is hard to escape old patterns of thought. John really believes apple maggot MUST be treated with synthetic pesticides because nothing else works -- it's a claim so many have made so often that just like sasquatch sightings it MUST be true. If he is shown the conclusive studies from Cornell & elsewhere that prove this common lore is false, he'll just come up with yet another pest he believes cannot be controlled except by the same harshest most harmful methods he is predisposed to believe in. He strongly believes in the magical incantation "safe if used as directed" but even he adds so many provisos he clearly knows it's one hell of a big "if."
John has for many years in this group advocated "the right chemical for the right job" -- he's a true believer in the trustworthiness of chemical industry sales pitches. If there's a better organic method, he's not incapable of realizing it, but he's going to fall behind the learning curve. I try always to remember this is the same guy who praised cowshit for "that farmy smell" -- gotta love a guy like that (as for me, I very swiftly learned never to stop for a hitchhiker in bib overalls near a dairy, as the car will smell like cowshit for the rest of the day).
-paghat the ratgirl

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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:08:47 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:

as I have never written on that subject.

Please cite just one time that I have promoted "the right chemical for the right job." Also, when I said anything about cowshit. You will fail for I have never done either.
Some may praise paghat but she is is off the mark this time and has demeaned me with false accusations. Bad paghat!
John

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If I partially confused your error about plum curculio with Sherwin's error about apple maggots, my apologies. When you made the untrue statement about plum curculio, you called it "another" pest that required synthetic chemicals to control. I assumed by "another" you were insisting apple maggots as mentioned earlier in the thread required toxic sprays, & "another" one that required it was plum curculio. If you had a third pest in mind I missed it somehow.
I'll post the relevant information on plum curculio further below, it'll make a good match for the citation-riddled data on organic control of apple maggots I already provided. But your denying the cowshit post is more fun just now:
If you never made the "farmy smell" post there must be two John Bachmans. Ever since you or your evil twin posted about the glories of the farmy smell of cow manure, Granny Artemis & I have incorporated the phrase "ahhh, that lovely farmy smell!" as our recurring synonym for "cowshit" every time we drive by a dairy. I just this minute did a google-groups search on the phrase "farmy smell" to find out if I'd been miscrediting that lovely discription of cowshit to the wrong fellow. I only got one hit, & it certainly appears to be you saying how much you enjoy the "farmy smell" of cow manure: <http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.gardens.edible/msg/813bab6a3eab3f95?dmode=source&hl=en
Having long ago lived next door to a dairy for a year, these sorts of references stick in my memory. I may even write a cowshit article for paghat.com someday, I've got many garden notes about cowshit just waiting to organize. In fact I lived between a dairy & the now defunct Longacres race track, & between the odors of horse shit & the cowshit, the horseshit was sweeter, but to each his own. Why you wouldn't want to be admired for liking the smell of cowshit best puzzles me. Even Garrison Keeler would agree with you, in his spoof of a Copeland diddy, ending on the sentimental lyric: "Proud and sure, cow manure, I know where I am," for which I wish I possessed the entire lyrics.
I think I remember pretty correctly your recurring advocacies of the right chemical properly used, though that certainly was not an exact quote as "farmy smell" was. Maybe you just don't know how your advocacy sounds sometimes. Very much in keeping with your post in this thread asserting that following label instructions renders all pesticides totally safe -- that's just untrue. The reality is that "used as directed," pesticides & herbicides have done great harm to watersheds & lakes & locally to Hood Canal, it took no off-label use to do great harm. Used strictly as directed, these chemicals have accumulative effects which label instructions don't take into consideration, combining effects when other chemicals are added into the garden mix according to THEIR directions, all of which degrades or combines into still other chemicals, many carcinogenic, none of those assessed before those misleading instructions are concocted.
Indeed the labeling is vastly more for legal rather than safety concerns.
It did not surprise me that you expressed a profound & misguided faith in labels which instruct that toxins be dumped in your immediate environment. It doesn't mean I disrespect you the way i would disrespect a Monsanto flack pretending to be a disinterested party as he obeys the company dictate to muddle every argument, but on another level its sometimes more annoying when reasonable people make unreasonable assertions.
Really I was responding to your untrue statement that "another pest" (I assumed you meant in addition to the apple maggot that had just been discussed in the thread) that cannot be controlled organically was plum curculio. You were dead wrong but i weary sometimes of correcting that sort of misinformation & so posted about your love of cowshit instead, thinking myself amusing rather than bad for it.
Both those orchard pests are now pretty easily controlled organically. That plum curulio was once believed to have no effective organic control was disproven a good five years ago, when the final barriers hampering organic orchards in the Northeast fell away (Pacific Nrthwest organic orcharders didn't want the sudden competition & were sorry the Northeasterners wised up).
Surround is approved as an organic pesticide. The effective ingredient of Surround is natural clay kaolin (hard to call it "active" ingredient since it is inert). Field trials overseen by Drs. Michael Glenn & Gary Puterka of the USDA found that orchards that had been experiencing 20 to 30 percent damage from plum curculio dropped to .5 to 1% damage with application of Surround. (It could well be that with broader organic principles in place, even Surround would not be necessary, but commercial orchards are by their nature not mixed-species environments so it's hard to achieve the prophelactic balance that is easier in a more complex community of gardened plants).
Now the chemical industry would prefer it if what you said were true, & would want it noted that Surround does not kill anything at all, but only suppresses sundry pests up to & including plum curculio. From a growers point of view there really is no difference, except the well-protected organic crop has a higher value than a crop from the chemical-dependent.
If I get a wee bit peevish about flat assertions that have no truth & which misrepresent organic principles as weak or tepid & encouraging pests, it's cuz it's annoying to see presumedly reasonable individuals insisting on such falsehoods then advovating the use of harmful toxins as completely safe safety when used responsibility & mistakenly insisting there is no choice about it.
Invariably, as in the two examples presented in this thread by yourself & Sherwin, there is always a choice. The decision to further toxify the environment cannot possibly be arrived at responsibly when the first piece of "reasoning" is that pests can't be organically controlled so there is no choice. Frequently the organic choice is objectively the more effective choice, & yet advocates of toxicity don't want the documentation of such facts, won't read the science, & will rarely correct their story.
-paghat the ratgirl
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On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 20:15:57 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net (paghat) wrote:

I made to a survey posted by a would-be book writer in 2000 caught pighat's attention. Although the term "cowshit" was not used, cow manure was, and I confessed a preference to the "farmy smell" of cow vs other varieties.
I stand corrected and apologize to pighat for accusing her of making stuff up.

While the label provides legal protection to the manufacturer if the user misapplies the product, that is not a bad thing. The labels also meet the requirements of the EPA for approval for use.
However, the labels also provide detailed instructions for the use of the product in areas that I mentioned above and also with regard to application in proximity to waterways, public water supplies and private wells.
I believe that if the restrictions are followed, the product can be used safely.

Surround does indeed provide effective control of plum curculio when applied according to it's label. That requires reapplication after every significant rain as Surround washes off easily and complete coverage is essential.
It also necessary to use a large amount of surround to get effective coverage 0.5#/gallon is recommended. That is a lot of material to apply after every rain.
Will some homeowners use Surround effectively? Yes, some will.
I will stick with Imidan at the rate of 1#/50 gallons applied every 10 - 14 days and follow all of the other label instructions. Then I will eat my perfect fruits with full confidence that it is safe to do so.
John
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<snip>>
Not very reassuring, considering the following:
Basic Testing to Identify Chemical Hazards http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/test-detail.tcl?edf_substance_ids2%2d11%2d6
Chemical: IMIDAN
"This chemical was not included in EPA's survey of basic testing data."

<snip>
WSU Pesticide Information Center http://www.tricity.wsu.edu/~cdaniels/factsheets/Imidan70W.htm Fact Sheet for Imidan
"Gowan, the registrant for Imidan, does not have the required toxicity data to support a general use category in a residential setting for Imidan. EPA has allowed a residential use for this SLN under the conditions that it be labeled a restricted use product."
So, neither the EPA nor the manufacturer have complete data.
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