Dark foliage

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Have often wondered how plants with dark foliage, like the dark red canna, handle chlorophyll.
Wikipedia has a long article; this is the first graph:
Chlorophyll (also chlorophyl) is a green pigment found in cyanobacteria and the chloroplasts of algae and plants.[1] Its name is derived from the Gree k words χλωρός, chloros ("green") and φ ύλλον, phyllon ("leaf").[2] Chlorophyll is an extr emely important biomolecule, critical in photosynthesis, which allows plant s to absorb energy from light. Chlorophyll absorbs light most strongly in t he blue portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, followed by the red portio n. However, it is a poor absorber of green and near-green portions of the s pectrum, hence the green color of chlorophyll-containing tissues.[3] Chloro phyll was first isolated by Joseph Bienaimé Caventou and Pierre Joseph Pelletier in 1817.[4]
Read the whole thing if interested, and make any comments...appreciated.
HB
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Higgs Boson wrote:

The third section on why chlorophyll is green not black is quite interesting to me. The explanation given, which I think is widely accepted in the botanical community, is that some (apparently superior) structures and functions of living organisms have not been reached by evolution because there was no evolutionary pathway from where they came from to get there. This accounts for the less than optimal structure of many aspects of life, eg the human eye and the giraffe's neck. In fact it is characteristic of a process that proceeds by many small connected steps to have such inferior outcomes. A process of design (such as human engineering) can abandon a bad design and take a completely different approach. Evolution cannot do that. Evolution is undirected and has no 'final' target nor does it look to the future as an engineer does, it can only work incrementally on choosing which variation of structure or function is better suited to the environment the organism is in at that time.
In case anybody thinks that evolution is too academic or even off topic, I think it is fair to say that having an understanding of evolution of plants and organisms that relate to plants (eg predators and symbiots) will make you a better gardener.
David
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On 8/8/13 8:19 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

In the August 2013 issue of Scientific American, the article "The Surprising Origins of Life's Complexity" suggests that evolution strongly depends, not so much on mutations that are advantageous, but more on mutations that are neutral. As such mutations accumulate in the gene pool, their combination eventually leads to changes in an organism. See <http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-surprising-origins-of-evolutionary-complexity .
--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
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David E. Ross wrote:

This application of complexity theory is not universally accepted. No matter the point that I was trying to make, that the outcomes of evolution are limited by the availablity of pathways from the previous situation to a new one remains. Whether this postulated mechanism opens up more pathways that permit greater leaps from one state to another remains to be seen, as does how often it might occur.
D
D
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David Hare-Scott wrote: ...

well now that there is an active designer in the house the game will significantly change... already it has begun and we're only in the few slivers of time in terms of the past and how long things have gone before.
i would love to be able to sleep for five hundred or a thousand years and be able to come back and see what has happened.
songbird
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songbird wrote:

I don't understand what you are saying. Could you be more explicit?
D
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David Hare-Scott wrote:

saying that evolution is undirected is false. it is directed (sometimes in ways that are contradictory (one day it is cold, the next day it is hot), sometimes orthogonal to the variation (the change favors big feet with webs between the toes but the species lives on rocks not in or near water) but now there is a new more potent form of direction, an actual designer who can get around poor starting designs by coming up with something completely different.
i for one would like a newly redesigned spine that isn't succeptible to disk bulges which pinch nerves. it is likely that within a few hundred to a thousand years we may actually get a differently designed spinal column (or leave biological forms behind in various ways).
songbird
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songbird wrote:

Just to make sure we are not misunderstanding each other, what I mean is there are no targets or goals in structure or function the process aims for. That is there is no specific direction set from the outset, no planning. That doesn't mean that there is no change for the better (better only in the sense of more adapted to the current environment) but that such changes are reached by a combination of natural mechanisms that could well reach some other position. Evolution may or may not result in the reproductive success of the organism, if it does the organism is sufficiently suited to the environment if not it dies out. This is a critical point, there may be many possible adaptations, or combinations of them, that bring about a similar result but they are not known in advance.
If you accept that then we agree. If not why do you say that?

OK, who or what is this designer and how does she/it do this designing? What evidence do you have that such exists and please give an example of it doing its thing.

How will that happen? How do you know it will happen?
(or leave biological forms behind in

Are you talking about entering The Matrix or what?
If you are tending towards religion or mysticism then you are outside the scope of science and there is no point in us going any further with this.
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David Hare-Scott wrote:

i've written similarly in this thread, so can't disagree in that it is how evolution used to happen and will likely happen somewhat like that into the future. the difference is now that humans are adjusting and removing different species at a rate much faster than blind evolution will ever accomplish. i.e. the process will become more efficient and more directed. we'll continue to select species we like and moderate or alter those we don't like (or get rid of them completely if we can -- i.e. polio, smallpox, t.b., saber toothed tigers) on the hit list at present i'm sure rats and mosquitoes are up there in the sights of some. weeds, certainly some species of those would be a target for elimination if various corporations and scientists could come up with a means.

humans, some scientists, some not, each acts as a selective agent that previously did not exist.

science keeps advancing or working on the big problems. damaged and painful spinal problems are a huge health care need at present. some can be remedied with the right approaches, but others require a more radical intervention like surgery (with all the risks associated with that it is something many people would like to avoid if the option existed).
so i know that science continues to work on the problem. that it might come up with a differently designed spine, be able to encode it in genes so that it is expressed as humans develop, and then have the right outcome is many years in the future. perhaps it won't be needed. i can't really predict the future, but i do know it is currently a huge problem.

no, it may have been science fiction in the past to talk about interfacing humans to computers directly and many other techniques of biological processes getting taken over by biological chips or many other technologies only now coming along. still many years to go there too.
but tell me this, if people are so willing to wear devices like hearing aids, have cochlear implants, have retinal implants to restore vision, develop kidneys and bladders from layers of cells, have heart pumps, drug pumps, etc. all implanted if needed. well tattoos alone tell you that many people don't care exactly what happens to their body as long as enough others will go along. in the case of a redesigned spine i'm pretty sure many people would gladly sign up for it as soon as it became generally available. would you deny your children a better spine that could resist injury or heal itself back to original form if it were damaged? would you not accept a better kidney if yours were already failing and it could be accomplished easily enough for a fairly modest use of resources? how about an extra heart or more memory for the brain? extra capacity for food storage or liquid storage? none of these things are that far-fetched.
i really don't see any end to body modifications once that gets going and they are already going. thicker skin that can resist cold or heat but still have all the sensitivity of the original? who'd care about mosquitoes and bugs if they couldn't get through the skin or we didn't even have blood any longer? would we be able to design a skin that could resist the cold and vaccuum of space? perhaps somewhat. there is a ton of science still to be done. we're really just at the leading edge of this and once it does get going we will likely have a huge explosion in different forms of human. to exploit the new niches that become available once we get out of the gravity well of planets.
anyways, no, i am not mystical in the sense that i would consider it impossible to leave biological processes behind. i don't think the mind exists apart from biology/matter/energy/physics and i'm fairly sure that the form may be able to change once we understand the basic arrangements and requirements.
i do know that if we can ship minds to far away places along with whatever they need to create a manufacturing ability at the other end using local materials then we no longer have to solve the huge problem of shipping habitat and all the supporting life forms. instead we ship information and storage for information and basic manufacturing to ramp up at the other end. all of which can be sent at much higher accelerations and at less risk of failure (many copies of the same thing could be sent knowing most of them might not make it, but it only takes a few to get a new colony going). so we take a trick from the biological processes we have learned about here, but we kick it up a notch and go with a designed goal to reach other planets or star systems.
as far as mysticism would go i would say that it is for the purpose of space travel that humans have been created (general problem solvers with minds flexible enough to solve the problem of reconfiguring their own existence so they can get out of the static trap they are in and move on to more adaptable forms).
not that i'm biased against the biological world. i just see the danger of being a life-form, aware as we are, and being in only one location and subject to catastrophe so i want backup plans up and running ASAP.
in the meantime, i garden. :)
songbird
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Just as long as we don't paint ourselves into a corner.
<http://www.commondreams.org/view/2013/08/05 8 Ways Privatization Has Failed America Free-market health care has been taking care of the CEOs. Ronald DePinho, president of MD Anderson Cancer Center in Texas, made $1,845,000 in 2012. That's over ten times as much as the $170,000 made by the federal Medicare Administrator in 2010. Stephen J. Hemsley, the CEO of United Health Group, made three hundred times as much, with most of his $48 million coming from stock gains.
<http://www.npr.org/2013/08/07/209585018/paying-till-it-hurts-why-america n-health-care-is-so-pricey> 'Paying Till It Hurts': Why American Health Care Is So Pricey
--
Palestinian Child Detained
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Billy wrote: ...

in an ever-expanding universe there aren't any corners.
i'm more concerned at present with the "all the eggs in one basket" trap we are already in. once we have viable colony ships off towards other stars (in whatever forms) then things get more interesting.
in terms of diaspora, genetic changes, modifications, etc. if they are engineered and understood then they can be reversed. more likely though we'll have a large number of humanoid variants, some which would no longer be biologically or socially compatible (the only thing added there is the biological incompatibility as it's pretty clear to me that many cultures are already socially incompatible anyways).
as far as costs/profits/investments/markets/etc. that's too far afield.
however, to think of it realistically, if you could modify your germ line to correct an otherwise constantly bothersome problem of your existing form that would be one of the most cost-effective investments in the future health of your decendents that you could ever make. what would that be worth? billions? trillions?
songbird
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I guess I worry more about the species. Remember we just did a big chat up about Superwheat.
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2323538/The-superwheat-boosts-cr ops-30--Creation-new-grain-hailed-biggest-advance-farming-generation.html

The 'superwheat' that boosts crops by 30%: Creation of new grain hailed as biggest advance in farming in a generation     Researchers have cross-bred modern wheat seed with ancient wild grass     Trials proved the 'superwheat' crop is more resilient and disease resistant -----
The point was that diversity had been bred out of modern wheat. You mentioned teosinte, which is a reservoir of genetic tricks for corn. We need these cave dwellers. We can't throw-away the accumulated wisdom of 4.5 billion years.
The point I'm trying to make is that the perfect man for today, may not be the perfect man for tomorrow, and he may not be so good for the day after that.
If you are depressed, you are living in the past.
If you are anxious, you are living in the future.
If you are at peace, You are living in the present. - Lao Tzu
--
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Billy wrote:

i did not nor will i ever say that we should throw away anything along the lines of any existing species, but that it is very likely future generations will spin off from the basic germ line we already have established much like we have mutations and selection acting on current species via existing mechanisms. it's just that we're likely to do it much faster and with a more directed (i.e. designed) focus.
there will always be peoples like the Amish who have no truck with genetic tinkerings directly.

the perfect person for what?
the perfect person for space travel may be different than the perfect person for gardening in the desert.
songbird
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And my point was we don't need a specialist, we need a generalist who can adapt to whatever.
Researchers have cross-bred modern wheat seed with "ancient wild" grass (the generalist).
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Billy wrote: ...

yes, so that means they still have the generalist available. i was just looking at Einkorn. doesn't look threatened.
some seed lines are so ancient we haven't been able to find the exact sources yet (corn being one), but the sources may still exist in some corner of the world. a lot left to be known.
songbird
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The point that you seem to be dancing around is that modern cultivars have lost much of their genetic diversity, and to breed new cultivars to resist present conditions the full genetic repertoire is needed. The repertoire that was lost because of selective breeding. Why would one think that breeding humans would be any different?
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Billy wrote: ...

sounds to me like an erronious assumption or unsupportable claim.
if you know what genes/mutations are involved then there's nothing keeping those from being included in other seeds. i think GM technology is heading that direction.
we have ancient seed lines to work with if we need them.
there's nothing which prevents further mutations from happening or other changes to be introduced as needed. at least in theory...

we don't breed humans as much as we breed other animals or plants, but that is likely to change.
anywys, the basic human stock of DNA is already sequenced in several ways, and more copies are already being collected and compared and worked with.
i don't think there is any danger of that being "lost" as long as there is some kind of technical society left to understand the meaning of the sequences.
an active designed with a vast store of knowledge and sequences is unlikely to worry about losing something.
tell me what can be lost?
here is only one example of information being collected:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130805-genome-smithsonian-dna-sequencing-science/
i'm pretty sure it is not the only one...
songbird
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Ah yes, in that great rising up morning, bye and bye, when we know everything, then nothing will be too hard for humanity to fix. It will be wonderful.
In the meantime, we walk in the dark, barking our shins on coffee tables, and running into walls.
<http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/08/110824-earths-species-8- 7-million-biology-planet-animals-science/>
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Billy wrote: ...

...
well then tell me, what would you do knowing that in some number of years the planet earth, the sun and most of the local system will be gone or uninhabitable?
do you think that we are stuck on this planet forever without recourse?
Mr. Fukuoka and his natural farming would say that we are not meant to know nature, that science is useless, that nature is perfect, etc. to be happy is to be a farmer and doing as little as possible. which is a nice way to go for some, but others like to engineer and design and tinker. why is the way of the tinker outlawed in nature?
yes, i know that only so much can be changed at a time if nature is to continue in some forms and still be able to function. i'm not talking about obliterating nature or any species that currently exist. i just wonder where those concerned about nature and sustainable agriculture can find some common ground with the makers and designers.
anyways, those are the thoughts of today...
in other news, got some of the turnip seeds and buckwheat seeds scattered and watered in. starting also to get tomatoes turning color. the weather this week is forecast sunny, sunny, sunny and getting warmer. so we'll have a chance of it. will have to water.
cheers,
songbird
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Try and stop me ;O)

Planning ahead is a good thing, but looking out some 5 billion years might be pushing the envelope some.
What are you going to do in a few years when you're gone, or non-viable? (I'll sign a petition, if you like. ;O)

The trouble with going away is where ever you go, there you are.
I've never really felt "stuck" on this planet, even if there is no way for me to walk home.

Mr. Fukuoka is a wise man. You have your family and friends with barbecues, and cheating at cards afterwards, on the week-ends. There are the plants, and animals to know, and the smell that comes after the rain, the flowers of spring, tending the garden, a cooling swim on a hot day, stars to look at, the colors of harvest, the migrating geese, the sound of rain. <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
OhIZODLDs>


It is? <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_cognition#Tool_and_weapon_use I doubt that people could be prevented from tinkering whether it's crating and transporting fire, or making a sharp edge, or peering over the edge of the Standard Model to see what else is out there.

I don't see a contradiction, as long as I don't have to eat their experiments before they are proved to be safe. But what of the day when people only exist in the conceptual reality between their ears, as "tweakers" do, and that "consciousness" can be transferred to a chip (solid state drive) in a mechanical, inorganic, ageless being. The day that humanity leaves nature behind.
Then we can talk about whether life is worth saving.

The squash has arrived in all its glory. One zucca, and one crookneck are producing all we can eat, and the zuchs haven't started yet. The cucumbers and lettuce are starting to hit their pace. We have tomatoes most of the week, but it's only the nose of the camel. The peppers have been sporadic, but now the heat is on us again, after a 6 week departure. Our weather guesser keeps forecasting 80s F, and we keep getting 90s F.
Work starts in about 2 weeks, and I'm hustling to finish up my projects.
The thunder from the YouTube video posted above reminds me that it's too bad those inorganic beings of the future aren't here yet. Chili beans for dinner tonight, with the usual reaction products expected tomorrow. ;O)
"To forget how to dig the earth and to tend the soil is to forget ourselves." - Mahatma Gandhi
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