Apple spraying?

[sherwindu]

And what makes you such a shmexpert?

I'm not crushed. You organic guys treat this subject like a religion. I'm not buying it. The whole organic thing is overstressed, overcommercialized, and in many respects incorrect.

At least I know what chemicals I'm using on my fruit. The commercial guys (including the organies) can spray with anything they want and you are not any wiser. There is no medical evidence that controled chemical spraying causes any disease. Sure a car produces lethal carbon monoxide, but nobody tells you to put your nose to the exhaust pipe. There are polutants all around us, which are out of our control to avoid. I put chemical spraying way way down the list when I control the spraying and washing of the fruit afterwords. I would also like to see some documented evidence that the sun has no effect on burning off these chemicals. Anyone who eats his fruit right after spraying and doesn't even wash it off is ingesting bad stuff, and I am not recommending that people do that.

I think we have given Ron two basic choices, organic or not. If you are a nut about using chemicals, you go organic. If you think you can use them wisely and preserve more of your fruit, you use chemicals.

[sherwindu]

It would also be helpful if you checked ALL the postings as I immediately followed up my posting by saying I missed his location the first time, but I corrected in my second posting.

I'm not sure the point you are trying to make with the article you referenced. Was it intended to support chemical spraying, or not. The article starts off in the first paragraph with the following:

"To successfully grow apples organically under Michigan conditions growers must recognize that the limited number of organically approved insect and disease control chemicals that are available leave them particularly susceptible to two major insect pests, Plum Curculio and Apple Maggot since no real good organic controls have been devised for these insects. Major diseases of apples can be controlled but require many frequent sprays particularly from silver tip to 4 weeks after petal fall."

I would not consider that a recommendation for total dependence on Organic spraying.

He also recommends Pyrethrum or Rotenone for Apple Maggot. I have tried both and found them inadequate. He also says that there is no effective spray for Plum Curculio, but Imidan does nicely for that, although it's distribution is restricted.

[Doug Kanter]

I don't claim to be an expert. However, I *do* know that some chemicals are DESIGNED to be absorbed into the plant tissue, while others are INTENDED to work on the surface of the plant. Perhaps you thought that when I said "systemic", I meant that the absorbtion was a chancy kind of thing. It's not. The manufacturers clearly explain how the products work.

You, however, were oblivious to these two major categories, right? You didn't know what "systemic" meant. You may, in fact be using some products which work this way, but you have no idea. Therefore, I did not need to be an expert in order to tell you that you can't claim anything about how rain, wind, sun or washing will remove residues. Nothing removes systemics except the passage of time (sometimes).

Nah...I'm not that fanatical about it, mainly because there's little I can do about chemicals. If I need carrots, and none are available in the organic area at the store, I buy regular ones. What I *am* fanatical about is stopping the spread of misinformation. There are two generations (so far) which totally missed a period in history when chemical companies were much more in the news than they are now. For a number of reasons, they're not much in the news these days unless you search past the local rag newspapers.

No they can't. There are lists of approved chemicals, not that it really matters. However, farmers are actually using less than 20 years ago. Some crops are still a nightmare, like the perfect potatoes that are the only ones McDonald's will accept for use as French fries. But, there are now two major point sources of agricultural chemicals which contribute more to dirtying the environment, and they're not farmers. Care to guess what those sources are?

Actually, there are, and it's easy to find out more about it. You'd probably doubt the research, though, because that's your frame of mind.

[sherwindu]

I'm only interested in what's harmful to me, or not, and I'm not interested in arguing semantics. I know that these sprays are designed to work on the surface of the apples. Assigning technical names to them does not make them any better or worse at doing that.

My claims come from direct experience. I have experience with these sprays, such that if I don't renew them every so often, they loose their effect on killing fungus and insects. There is only one reason for this, dissipation of the chemical due to sun, wind, and rain.

That includes scaring the hell out of people for no good reason. Most of us are aware of the chemicals in our society and have learned to live with them.

Because nuclear fission can produce atomic bombs, we don't close down our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are a CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical pesticides, we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the point

where it can take over, I'm all for it. It's not there yet.

Would you accept anything less?

My mind state is that there is lot's of research in this field both pro and con, but nothing definitive has been shown. I feel that with proper usage, chemicals can be safely used.

[Ann]

sherwindu expounded:

Learned to live with them. Learned to accept poisons. Somehow our bodies have adapted to the poisons surrounding them. Ya.

[Tom Jaszewski]

Oh Oh, another deluded amerikan.....

[Jangchub]

They're everywhere.

[Doug Kanter]

I forgot to ask him "Who told you to say these things?"

[sherwindu]

The crazies in Iran said if I promote atomic energy plants here, we may let them build some in Iran.

Let's campaign to turn off all the nuclear power plants and fire up all those clean coal burning generators.

For the millions of starving people in the world, lets see if we can up the ante by letting the crops go to hell.

Doug Kanter wrote:

[Doug Kanter]

Ah ha! Rush Limbaugh is your master, your mother ship. I knew it sounded familiar. Or, do you have a relative working for Dow, who says "Of course these things are safe. How could we sell them if they weren't safe?"

[Suzy O]

The UW Extension has a couple of great publications on growing apples: "Growing Apples in Wisconsin" & "Apple Pest Management for Home Gardeners."

I prefer to use no or little pesticides in my garden, but considering everything I know about growing apples, I think the trade off to cut way back on chemicals is your time, e.g., hanging bait traps, monitoring for pests, etc.

Also, I think one of the reasons it's especially difficult to grow pest-free apples -- in comparison to other fruits-- is that it's probably one of the most abundant fruit plants that's grown, which contributes to the monoculture effect -- plenty of host plants to provide a "banquet" for insects & disease.

Suzy O Wisconsin, Zone 5