Apple spraying?

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OK, It's a moderately nice January day and I finished pruning the apple trees. Looks like it's going to be a great year for apples but I need to know the what, when, where, and how much of spraying apples trees to fend off both predator and disease!
Any advice, references, etc???
Ron H. West Central Wisconsin
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most sprayed of all crops, and that one should avoid the seeds and peel at the very least. And preferably eat organic apples.
Is this true about the spraying? Does it apply only to large commercial orchards (maybe Ron's IS a l.c.o.).
Looking forward to the wisdom of Those Who Know.
Persephone
--
A king can stand people fighting but
he can't last long if people start
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<Persephone> wrote in message wrote:

Report Card: Pesticides in Produce http://www.foodnews.org/reportcard.php "...peaches leading the list, then strawberries, apples and nectarines."
Pesticides in Apples http://www.foodnews.org/highpest.php?prod=PFR20N01 & Pesticides were found on 91 percent of the apples tested. There were 36 pesticides found on apples:
12 Most Contaminated Buy These Organic
. Apples . Bell Peppers . Celery . Cherries . Imported Grapes . Nectarines . Peaches . Pears . Potatoes . Red Raspberries . Spinach . Strawberries
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wrote:

Or, grow some of them yourself, if possible. In my garden (upstate NY), I've never had any reason to spray peppers, potatoes, raspberries, spinach or strawberries. They all turn out flawless. Climate is a factor, as is the time of year the crops are grown, relative to the life cycle of certain pests.
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Hi Persephone,
Apple growers seem to be divided into two camps, organic and the rest of us. I am not a strict organic guy. I have seen the results of other hobbyist apple growers, who try to be organic, and I find the results disappointing. They are content with losing a portion of their crop, whereas, I want to preserve as much as I can. I use a combination of spraying and organic methods (sticky balls, traps, etc.). In my area, these organic methods are not enough to fully protect the fruit. I don't feel my health is endangered by spraying, when using certain precautions. One is to stop spraying a few weeks before harvest to give the sun time to burn off the chemicals and the wind and rain to do a similar job. As a secondary precaution, I wash all my fruit with a mild soap solution. Do I remove the chemicals 100 per cent? Probably not, but the residue is very small. The chemicals do not penetrate the skin, so if it still of concern, you can peel the skin off before eating.
I never buy store apples, but for them, I would certainly take the second and third steps. I don't trust the 'organic' label on apples. I suspect some of them may be sprayed occasionally with chemicals, if a farmer is in danger of losing his crop.
The seeds are not susceptable to spray contamination, and besides, who eats them anyways?
Sherwin D.
Persephone wrote:

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I don't know what you spray with, but as the web sites indicate, some products are systemic, so you can wash your apples all day long and you won't get rid of those chemicals. And, sun, wind & rain won't do a thing, either.
I don't grow fruit trees, but I seem to recall reading about the idea of using a material similar to floating row cover to completely wrap dwarf trees. Obviously, this won't address fungus problems, but it should certainly help with some of the bugs. Have you explored this idea?
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Doug Kanter wrote:

You are definitely wrong about the sun, wind, & rain. It's a question of quantity, and I specifically said that the residue remaining would not be significant. We ingest much more junk into our bodies by just breathing our poluted air. If you wanted to be safe, you would become another 'bubble boy', who was locked into a completely controlled environment because of his poor immune system. If you define organic to something that grows naturally, you may want to think about Wolfsbane, Death Angel Mushrooms, Marijuana, Hemlock, Foxglove, Mandrake, Poison Sumac, etc. I am not suggesting these are used on apples, but I am just using that as an illustration for comparison.

It's called 'Surround'. It is a disgusting powder that covers your fruit. I have tried it and it doesn't do the job. It's a pain to apply, and an even greater pain to clean off after harvest. Surround is primarily made of Kaolin, a clay substance. I checked on the potential problems of ingesting clay on a medical website and they claim the following: "Clay or dirt eating has been associated with lead poisoning in infants, children, and pregnant women, with potential risks such as low red blood cell count and brain damage. Clay or dirt eating has been associated with lead poisoning in infants, children, and pregnant women, with potential risks such as low red blood cell count and brain damage." Seems like this organic spray has potential detrimental effects, as well.
Unfortunately, the organic sprays have a long way to go to approach the effectiveness of chemical sprays. I am experimenting with covering the apples with zip lock bags and mesh nets. It seems to be working nicely, but it is an extremely labor intensive approach, and only practical in protecting a small percentage of my apples.

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I'm definitely wrong about sun, wind and rain?? Before we continue, let's agree on some definitions. Do you know what "systemic" means? Do not post links to dictionaries or any other source. Tell me in your own words what a systemic pesticide is.

No, I'm not talking around something you spray or dust onto the fruit. I'm talking about a gossamer-like fabric which allows light & rain to penetrate, but stops the majority of insects from contacting the plant. In catalogs and garden stores, you'll see it labeled as "floating row cover" because it's so lightweight that it appears to float. I can't recall where, but in the past, I've seen it sold in larger sizes for covering dwarf fruit trees. You'd obviously need to wait until enough pollination had taken place, and then cover the tree. Do some research. You might discover something interesting.
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Doug Kanter wrote:

Since you were the first one to use the term, why don't you tell me what you meant it to be?

I have heard of this material for ground covers on plants like strawberries, but I do not see it as a practical use atop a fruit tree. The branches of the tree would poke holes in it allowing the critters to come in.

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You're pretty slippery. A systemic is a substance which is absorbed into the plant's tissue. It is not removed by wind, rain, sun, or washing the fruit. It may break down in some way, but since you know nothing about the chemicals you're discussing, you can't make that claim without further research. You're exactly the kind of customer the chemical companies hope for.
The foodnews.org site provides a list of chemicals commonly found in certain fruits and vegetables. Some are systemic. Their list is a good starting point for your learning process.

Never having used it, you have no basis for the claim that it would be mechanically unreliable. You just want to believe it. Faith has no place in science or gardening.
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My Appologies to the group! I didn't intend to start a pissing contest!
Ron H.

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You didn't, Ron. There's always one shmexpert around who likes to spread misinformation about pesticides. I enjoy crushing them.
As far as your situation, I like what the late Henry Mitchell (a garden writer) said about growing one's own fruit: If you buy sprayed fruit from the grocery store, you're exposed to weird chemicals. If you spray it yourself, you're exposed to it even more.
Do some research on organic methods. You might not get perfect apples, but you can probably take some measures that will make an improvement over doing nothing.
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Doug Kanter wrote:

And what makes you such a shmexpert?
I'm not crushed. You organic guys treat this subject like a religion. I'm not buying it. The whole organic thing is overstressed, overcommercialized, and in many respects incorrect.

At least I know what chemicals I'm using on my fruit. The commercial guys (including the organies) can spray with anything they want and you are not any wiser. There is no medical evidence that controled chemical spraying causes any disease. Sure a car produces lethal carbon monoxide, but nobody tells you to put your nose to the exhaust pipe. There are polutants all around us, which are out of our control to avoid. I put chemical spraying way way down the list when I control the spraying and washing of the fruit afterwords. I would also like to see some documented evidence that the sun has no effect on burning off these chemicals. Anyone who eats his fruit right after spraying and doesn't even wash it off is ingesting bad stuff, and I am not recommending that people do that.
I think we have given Ron two basic choices, organic or not. If you are a nut about using chemicals, you go organic. If you think you can use them wisely and preserve more of your fruit, you use chemicals.

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I don't claim to be an expert. However, I *do* know that some chemicals are DESIGNED to be absorbed into the plant tissue, while others are INTENDED to work on the surface of the plant. Perhaps you thought that when I said "systemic", I meant that the absorbtion was a chancy kind of thing. It's not. The manufacturers clearly explain how the products work.
You, however, were oblivious to these two major categories, right? You didn't know what "systemic" meant. You may, in fact be using some products which work this way, but you have no idea. Therefore, I did not need to be an expert in order to tell you that you can't claim anything about how rain, wind, sun or washing will remove residues. Nothing removes systemics except the passage of time (sometimes).

Nah...I'm not that fanatical about it, mainly because there's little I can do about chemicals. If I need carrots, and none are available in the organic area at the store, I buy regular ones. What I *am* fanatical about is stopping the spread of misinformation. There are two generations (so far) which totally missed a period in history when chemical companies were much more in the news than they are now. For a number of reasons, they're not much in the news these days unless you search past the local rag newspapers.

No they can't. There are lists of approved chemicals, not that it really matters. However, farmers are actually using less than 20 years ago. Some crops are still a nightmare, like the perfect potatoes that are the only ones McDonald's will accept for use as French fries. But, there are now two major point sources of agricultural chemicals which contribute more to dirtying the environment, and they're not farmers. Care to guess what those sources are?

Actually, there are, and it's easy to find out more about it. You'd probably doubt the research, though, because that's your frame of mind.
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Doug Kanter wrote:

I'm only interested in what's harmful to me, or not, and I'm not interested in arguing semantics. I know that these sprays are designed to work on the surface of the apples. Assigning technical names to them does not make them any better or worse at doing that.

My claims come from direct experience. I have experience with these sprays, such that if I don't renew them every so often, they loose their effect on killing fungus and insects. There is only one reason for this, dissipation of the chemical due to sun, wind, and rain.

That includes scaring the hell out of people for no good reason. Most of us are aware of the chemicals in our society and have learned to live with them.
Because nuclear fission can produce atomic bombs, we don't close down our nuclear power plants. I think we should build more, since they are a CLEAN and efficient way to produce energy. If not for chemical pesticides, we would have world wide famine. When the organic stuff can get to the point
where it can take over, I'm all for it. It's not there yet.

Would you accept anything less?

My mind state is that there is lot's of research in this field both pro and con, but nothing definitive has been shown. I feel that with proper usage, chemicals can be safely used.
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Learned to live with them. Learned to accept poisons. Somehow our bodies have adapted to the poisons surrounding them. Ya.
--
Ann, gardening in Zone 6a
South of Boston, Massachusetts
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wrote:

Oh Oh, another deluded amerikan.....
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wrote:

They're everywhere.
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I forgot to ask him "Who told you to say these things?"
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The crazies in Iran said if I promote atomic energy plants here, we may let them build some in Iran.
Let's campaign to turn off all the nuclear power plants and fire up all those clean coal burning generators.
For the millions of starving people in the world, lets see if we can up the ante by letting the crops go to hell.
Doug Kanter wrote:

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