,,,and the rains came...

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Todd wrote:

First I note that you have changed the subject and presented no facts in rebuttal (again).
We have wandered OT but I had hope that our talk of water treatment was of interest and some relevance to gardeners and might provide some information and understanding. I had hope too that people might see that you can reach consensus through rational exchange. It now becomes apparent that will not happen in this case.
I will not bring climate change denial to this NG as, despite its importance and relevance to gardening, it will consume a great deal of bandwidth and make no progress, as it has all been said before and nobody will gain a thing. I see the shoots of the same tired debating points poking through the soil already. Let us agree to disagree and get back to gardening.
David
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On 03/06/2014 01:30 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

Hi David,
I don't have to. If I have a pet theory, say the moon is made out of cheese, it is my job to prove it to you, not the other way around. If you think temperature is rising, then you have to prove it to me.
The Climate Change crowd has not got squat. Their computer models are so bad they couldn't predict the sun will rise the next day. Plus, they have been caught falsifying their data. And, they name call ("Deniers") anyone that "Dare" disagree with them. And there is no open debate as they refuse to listen to contradictory evidence, which is overwhelming.
And even though I don't have to, here you go:
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCooling/page1.php
My guess, sun spot activity is far more responsible than anything man can do. Ever see how much crap a volcano spews into the atmosphere? Mankind is a piker!
Sea levels rising? Good luck proving that one.
-T
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Todd wrote:

All through the thread on water treatment I gave you facts and argument that it was safe to drink. You gave nothing but eeeeeeeeewwwwwwwww. The last instance you said I was saying coal can't be cleaned. I explained it can in small scale but at large scale it is unproven. Then you changed the subject to climate change.
All that has nothing to do with me having to prove climate change happens, which I will not attempt here. If you want to go round on that there are plenty of NGs that will accommodate you but it would be unreasonable here. This is now getting into debate about debating which is as unproductive as debating climate change. Lets leave it.
David
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On 3/7/2014 11:16 AM, Todd wrote:

Forget computer models.
Instead, talk to the almond growers in the Central Valley of California. They have seen reductions in crops because their trees no longer get sufficient winter chill. This has been going on for a few years now.
Also talk to the Canadian government. They are planning a new seaport on their arctic coast to handle shipping through the North-West Passage.
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Climate: California Mediterranean, see
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On 03/07/2014 04:31 PM, David E. Ross wrote:

Hi David,
They are also having record drought. Just across the Sierra here in northern Nevada, we had record lows. Colder than the Eternal Golf Course. (That might not be a good analysis depending on whether you-know-who keeps it too hot or too cold to torment the inmates. Hope I never find out the answer.) Anyway, it was really, really cold. I am sure the Central Valley caught hell too.
And, by the way, this is all normal. It is caused by El Nino and La Nina. This it is completely normal. All has to do with solar heating and currents in the Pacific Ocean.
Average ocean temperature are not rising. See http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/OceanCooling/page1.php
I have seen pictures of Carson City with snow tunnels between the buildings in pioneer times. We get a foot of snow at once if we are lucky. (Average rain fall per year is around six inches.) This is all normal. The earth does this all on its own. Doesn't need our help.

This is a normal pattern for the Arctic Circle. Every 22 years or so all the ice shifts to Russia and back and forth. Completely normal. I can't wait for all the ice to shift back. That will be caused by global warming too. (Or will that be George Bush's fault too? Well anyway ...) Again, average ocean temperatures are not rising. Sea levels are not rising either. If the arctic was melting, they would be rising.
Here is a good link on Al Gore's film: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/09/court-identifies-eleven-inaccuracies-al-gore-s-inconvenient-truth
To summarize the above, here is what the British court ordered:
"In order for the film to be shown, the Government must first amend their Guidance Notes to Teachers to make clear that: 1.) The Film is a political work and promotes only one side of the argument.
2.) If teachers present the Film without making this plain they may be in breach of section 406 of the Education Act 1996 and guilty of political indoctrination.
3.) Eleven inaccuracies have to be specifically drawn to the attention of school children."
Here is one of the 11 inaccuracies the court found (goes to your Northwest passage comment):
"The film suggests that the Antarctic ice covering is melting, the evidence was that it is in fact increasing."
Canada can fire up their new ports every time the ice shifts. Be a nice economic boost for them.
The Central Valley has the best product in the world. (Uh oh, did I just say something nice about California? Wash my mouth out with soap!) I hope they figure out a way around the drought or crappy produce it is this summer. :-(
Farming is back breaking hard work. Plus you are completely at the mercy of the elements. Got a lot of respect for what they do!
-T
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On 03/07/2014 06:24 PM, Todd wrote:

Finally found a reference to this: http://www.earth-heal.com/index.php/news/news/66-magnetic-field/540-magnetic-ice-caps.html
Here is a fun study. Show lots of shifting. http://www.skepticalscience.com/Arctic-Winter-Analysis.html
Some people thought the shifting magnetic poles meant the end of civilization as we know it.
-T
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On Friday, March 7, 2014 4:31:45 PM UTC-8, David E. Ross wrote:

in

nd "data" to support their bias. Even when global warming reaches up and b ites them or their progeny in the posterior, their determination bias will burn fierce and strong (block that metaphor <g>)
HB
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On 03/08/2014 11:34 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:

Hi Higgs,
The problem is that it is hoax. If there was anything to it your would be presenting your data for peer review and not pitching it as a religion ("Deniers"). You would not have to resort to political correctness (mind control).
Any there is nothing biting anyone in the ass. The hoaxers haven't got squat. Everything they predicted is not happening. Ocean temperatures are falling.
-T
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On Saturday, March 8, 2014 3:44:25 PM UTC-8, Todd wrote:

s in

s

a.

e.

find "data" to support their bias. Even when global warming reaches up an d bites them or their progeny in the posterior, their determination bias wi ll burn fierce and strong (block that metaphor <g>)

It must be comforting for you to realize that you know more than the vast c oncensus of legitimate climate and other scientists, who have spent the las t 30 or so years (at least since Hansen stood before the Congress and made his predictions) trying to "falsify" the data. "Falsify" being the standar d procedure by which legitimate scientists compete world-wide to disprove a finding, proposal, theory.
HB
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On 03/09/2014 04:32 PM, Higgs Boson wrote:

> the vast concensus of legitimate climate and other scientists, > who have spent the last 30 or so years (at least since Hansen > stood before the Congress and made his predictions) trying to > "falsify" the data. "Falsify" being the standard procedure by > which legitimate scientists compete world-wide to disprove a > finding, proposal, theory.

Hi Higgs,
I have to believe that Hansen was sincere in what he was saying. It is okay to be wrong every now and then.
Can you see where this is going? We are not having a discussion on this or that piece of fascinating research or discovery.
You are reacting to me the same way I would react to you if you told me my God did not create the heavens and the earth. I just know it to be true and would summarily dismiss you (without the name calling ["Deniers"]) just as you are dismissing me. You know it to be true and won't hear otherwise. Just as I would not listen to you.
There is no vast consensus. Just a lot of sloppy research. So sloppy the Warmers refuse to even listen to researchers that call them out on it. This is why they resort to political correctness and religious ideology ("Deniers").
Don't forget the Las Angles times refusing to print editorials against it and the letter writing campaign to get the Washington Post not to print an anti warming editorial. This isn't science. No open discussion or peer review. This is religion.
Oh yes, and they publish names too!
Global warming activists launch misguided campaign against skeptical TV weathercasters: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/capital-weather-gang/post/global-warming-activists-launch-misguided-campaign-against-skeptical-tv-weathercasters/2012/01/23/gIQA2HXMLQ_blog.html
Washington Post: Don't publish climate lies: http://www.forecastthefacts.org/
And yes, they do falsify data. They have to, as they haven't got squat:
IPCC Scientists Caught Producing False Data To Push Global Warming: http://www.prisonplanet.com/ipcc-scientists-caught-producing-false-data-to-push-global-warming.html
Geoengineering, Falsified Data, And Global Warming: http://www.geoengineeringwatch.org/geoengineering-falsified-data-and-global-warming/
Global warming claims 'based on false data': http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/global_warming.htm
Fakegate: The Obnoxious Fabrication of Global Warming: http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2012/03/01/fakegate-the-obnoxious-fabrication-of-global-warming/
Oh ya! Real Science. Lets base our theory on one tree's rings!
What is going on here is a money and freedom grab by a lot of elitists. Al Gore is getting filthy, stinking rich off of this. Next time you here Global Warming claims, reach down, grab your ankles, and kiss your freedom goodbye. Don't be part of it.
Here is a good web site to show you the other side: http://wattsupwiththat.com/ Unless it offends your religious sensibilities?
“Conformity-the natural instinct to passively yield to that vague something recognized as authority” -- Mark Twain
-T
By the way, when you resort to name calling ("Deniers"), you are admitting you have lost the argument.
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You are stating the bleeding obvious reason why I would not continue with this. Has this only now occured to you? Perhaps you will drop it now.
D
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On 11/03/2014 8:58 AM, David Hare-Scott wrote:

I'd have thought that you wouldn't bother to continue with him because he cites 'newsbusters' and its inaccurate report of '11 inaccuracies' and making statements like 'There is no vast consensus. Just a lot of sloppy research.'
Those examples, let alone the rest of what he's written, are enough to make a person of reasonable sensibilities curl up and slink away in case what he's got is infectious.
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On 03/10/2014 11:02 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hi Fran,
You need to look at both sides. At first, it will hurt a bit, but eventually you will get use to it. After a while you will find it enjoyable. Broadens your understanding of the world around you. You can also have wonderful conservations with others as long as you are polite about your differences and listen to others.
I have a retired college professor as a customer that loves to talk politics with me. One of the things I adore about him is the way he repeats back what I said to him to make sure that is exactly what I meant before disagrees with me. We have the most wonderful conversations. And because he listens and reflects what I say, I love listening to him as well. Dude is one sharp cookie!
And the 11 inaccuracies where a British court. If you don't like Newsbusters as a source, try a different source:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q +inaccuracies+in+british+court
And Newsbuster published a retraction: Correction: Judge Finds Only Nine Convenient Untruths in Gore's Film: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/10/11/correction-judge-finds-only-nine-convenient-untruths-gores-film
-T
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On 11/03/2014 5:21 PM, Todd wrote:

I long ago looked at both sides both on the Web and in newsgroup and quite obviously since I've read the drivel you have posted and the cites you've given, I still continue to read both sides. I hope I never lose my marbles sufficiently that I will be so uncritical as to accept what is said by deniers.
I long ago concluded that deniers were either engaged in duping others or were the subject of the duping. Deniers invariably selectively cite and choose opinion over fact. That applied equally to Web based sites or in newsgroups. No doubt it's all about money and following the money trail would reveal who is putting up the money for the dupers to do their peddling.
After a while

He probably dines out on what you say.
One of the things I

Wrong. It's a single digit not even a big number like the 97% of climate scientists who agree that anthropogenic climate change is real.
If you don't

Another cite that doesn't get the numbers right

That could be been a positive thing for them to have done if they hadn't repeated the previously included 2 lies and hadn't attempted to smear US press which had accurately reported the Courts edict on guidance notes. I also loved the hypocrisy whereby they criticise 'the [US] press' for failing to expose 'a charade' when the self same shabby, hypocritical site didn't expose the highly manipulative and transparent charade of Monckton's funding of the challenge before a British court.
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On 03/11/2014 12:54 AM, Fran Farmer wrote:

Hmmmm. "Deniers." Other name calling. Interesting religious you have there. Do you tithe?
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On 12/03/2014 5:28 AM, Todd wrote:

When forms ask for religion, I tick the 'none' box.
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On 03/11/2014 11:07 PM, Fran Farmer wrote:

When asked for religion or race, I keep looking for the NYB box (none of your business). I have written that in a few times too
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Fran Farmer wrote: ...

*chuckles* that's a great one! and very likely true in this case, you can't just make stuff up any better than this.
unfortunately, it can be pretty divisive in some families and not just when trying to talk about gardening.
songbird
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A RWer that doesn't believe the climate scientists. Tell me it isn't so.
Next you'll tell us the world is 6K years old, and we haven't seen the real birth certificate. Maybe you have a story about hollow point ammunition or ovulation just shutting down after rape.
I bet you have a lot of "scientific political" views. Like a good sheep, you just feed at the trough of your masters.
You so funny.
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Dan Espen

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On 03/11/2014 07:25 AM, Dan Espen wrote:

Did I insult you? Did I make stuff up about you? Manners.

Hi Dan,
Be careful you are not practicing what you are accusing me of. Instead of having an interesting discussion about science between friends, you are reacting as if I insulted a religious axiom -- a self-evident truth that requires no proof.
I think this as your resort to insults instead of discussing the issue. And, when you resort to insults, it means you have no case.
And, there a a lot of "climate scientists" that don't agree with global warming. In my opinion, they make a very well documented case against it. But, then again, I am looking at the subject as science, not as religion.
Have I mentioned lately that the oceans are not warming?
-T
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