And some people say there's no God..........

[Bill M]

The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.

Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god creator.

Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal happiness.

If this is true, why did he create sin and punishment on Earth? Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?

Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his ?free will?. This is totally specious. ?Free will? does no imply or require evil conduct.

free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.

He already created other limitations on man?s ?free will?.

He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for his creations!)

Then why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie, subjugate and even kill other men?

This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god?s wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the characteristics of an all loving and caring god.

Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and serious body malfunctions? Why does he permit millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?

There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the work of an all caring and loving god???

Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally ?innocent children? to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age?

Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks, jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, poisonous snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?

World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.

World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more millions maimed for life.

The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 250,000 men, women and children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally innocent children!

There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and totally innocent children.

The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and innocent children indiscriminately.

Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and malnutrition.

These afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of all religious persuasions.

Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling, purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation systems including flying through the air.

Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think he will let us enjoy peace and happiness eternally in his Heaven after death? And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents, siblings and friends?

If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an ?Intelligent Designer?. The objective evidence is that, if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the welfare of the creatures on Earth.

The objective evidence is that no god created man but quite the opposite; that man created gods!

[Jangchub]

I'm not sure I understand. Would I say what?

I am a native New Yorker. I don't live there any more, but everyone I know does. While watching the first tower, then seeing the second plane as it drove through the second tower I didn't know what to day. I remember saying: what the f*ck was that.

It was an unimanaged horror for everyone involved. I cried and got very quiet.

[MarkA]

You forgot the best one of all:

-- suffering is good for you.

[Michael Gray]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 03:43:28 GMT, Jangchub wrote: - Refer:

Any form of self-delusion is a potentially damaging thing. The real-world evidence for such a case is overwhelming. Delusion is NOT benign, even if it does make the deludee 'feel better'.

--

[Michael Gray]

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 01:01:00 -0500, "Greywolf" wrote: - Refer:

Rather than a "leap of faith", I prefer to think of it as "jumping into the gaping bottomless chasm of superstion".

--

[Jangchub]

I am not sure why non believers think people who are believers are superstitious.

Spirituality is a very subjective thing and means different things to different people. When I'm engaged in conversation and the subject of god comes up, I ask people what they mean by "god." I am always surprised to find out many people use the term as a metaphor and it actually means nothing.

My mother is always saying god watches out for her. If she wants to believe that, and it gives her some solace, I shut my mouth. I don't engage her in that discussion because I do not believe in god, or that someone is watching me who created me. It's still nice to allow for others to have their thoughts and sometimes it's really good to just shut my mouth.

[Jangchub]

Yes, I get that and I'm with you on delusion being the cause of great suffering. That said, I do not believe in bashing someone in the head with my aethiesm, they wouldn't hear me. So, since I may or may not be more informed than a believer it's not up to me to make that correction. People have to come to their own conclusions, many go along the god train. It's a lot easier for many people think something is "doing" it for them. I don't get that, but I allow for it. I couldn't change it if I tried.

[Chris H. Fleming]

Atheist trolls save no souls, it's true.

I don't go running into Churches screaming "There is no god, you are all free!". But what about when the believer intentionally shares his dellusion with nonbelievers? Do you think the nonbelievers should just shut up and take it? I think there is a place and a time for the overt rejection of irrationality. And I think when somebody is attempting to push their irrationality on you, that is probably a good time to reject it. The more positive the better. People have to much ego to accept truths that offend them.

[Chris H. Fleming]

Because it's a tautology when you condsider that belief in (*) Miraculous and extraordinary events (*) Supernatural intervention (*) Angelic apparations (*) The efficacy of Charms: crucifix, pictures, saint candles (*) The efficacy of Prayers, Chants, and Ceremony (*) Biblical Prophecy (*) ... are all forms of superstition.

Of course Deists are completely immune to such criticism. Not all believers are superstitious by definition, just most of them.

It's like saying the story of Jesus the Christ shouldn't be considered Myth because a lot of people believe it. Strength and number of conviction is irrelevant.

Yes, some believers are very rational and lack an anthropomorphic deity.

That sounds like a grade A superstition to me. And I would probably bite my tongue to. But in a public forum where believers are preaching to nonbelievers, I think the rules are a bit different. You don't go out of your way to harrass your mother, and your mother isn't going out of her way to harrass nonbelievers.

[Persephone]

FOLKS COULD YOU PLEASE TAKE THIS TO EMAIL! YOU'RE CLUTTERING UP A GARDEN GROUP WITH YOUR "SPIRITED" (pun intended) DEBATE!

Persephone

[Jangchub]

I have many images and statues and articles which are considered holy objects. They are motivating to me, and the sole reason why they are here. Then again, I'm a Buddhist who is aethiest. There is no creator god, but there are people who have purified their minds to the point they no longer need a body. This could be called superstitious. The whole of it suits me. I can live a spiritual life and not believe in god.

Well, that's kind! My mother is beyond superstition and deep into mental illness. I don't say this as a mean statement, but at my age I can no longer ignore it and she has no intention of doing anything about it at 72.

I do get annoyed within my thoughts when people either blame or give thanks to an invisible man in the sky. I shrivel up when I'm anywhere and people are discussing that.

As for believers who harrass non believers, I would ignore them. It's a problem IMO when someone has to or tends to defend a position as fact. When asked about reincarnation and if science disproved it, The Dalai Lama simply said, "Then we will get rid of it immediately!"

[paghat]

Many little kiddies have an Invisible Friend that they either grow out of as childish & silly, or else their invisible friend turns into God for them. The tragedy is how so many people love their invisible friend more than they care about their children, friends, or humanity. And the invisible friend can be used to justify any harmful thing they want to do.

-paghat the ratgirl

[thomas p.]

snip

The more relevant question would be why teach something for which there is no objective reason to believe is true?

[Jangchub]

Good point. I don't deny there is a god, I simply don't care and personally don't believe in a god.

Another interesting thing I've noticed is how people go from one thing to the other and god becomes the drug of choice.

Your last sentence is why my husband and I don't have a flock of friends. There's no bullshit "fellowshipping" going on around here.

[Jangchub]

If you are talking about reincarnation, there are extensive tests performed when a young Tulku or Rinpoche manifests in another body after they die. I'm not saying you should belive, I am saying I believe this to be true and it would take me far too much time to explain karma and rebirth in a forum like this. I don't find I have any authority to discuss, or defend the position.

However, there are many books written with Gelugpa traditions. His Holiness has a newish book, "The Universe In A Single Atom." I could be off on the title.

[Cary Kittrell]

Oooh, yes. So noted.

-- cary

[Michael Gray]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:13:37 GMT, Jangchub wrote: - Refer:

Except that Theists steal my money, in the form of tax exemption. They get preferential treatment in the law. They can force me to choose between going to one of their wars, or face punishment. The direct an palpable effects are legion, and very real. I do not have to lift a finger, nor even squeak about atheism to have my taxes stolen from me and given to fund church officials and directly enable them to sexually and mentally molest my children.

[Michael Gray]

On Sun, 20 Aug 2006 13:09:12 GMT, Jangchub wrote: - Refer:

It could be because: they ARE superstitious! Believing something that you know ain't so, is the acme of superstition. Trusting an effect that has failed all tests since recorded history, IS SUPERSTITION!

I am not sure why anyone would possibly think otherwise, unless they have been so effectively brainwashed to exclude certain select categories of superstitions from the definition.

Chirstians think that native animist beliefs are superstitious (but Christianity is not), and the natives think that Christianity is superstitious, (but their beliefs are not)!!!

It is quite laughable, when seen from the outside.

[Jangchub]

This is a whole other subject. By the way, I have been misspelling "aetheist." I picture in my head "aerobic" and it comes out. Anyway, I am in full agreement with you, but this is a program as a result of the U.S. and its current administration.

Our president is a fanatic, maybe even evil. This faith based initiative is complete shit and we all know it, including him. How much money has this program given to anyone outside of fundamental Christian churches? That's easy, none.

I can't really argue because everything you said is true, so we agree on this.

[thomas p.]

Jangchub skrev:

There are no, objective, repeatable, peer-reviewed studies that provide any evidence at all for reincarnation. There really is nothing there but a belief based on nothing of substance.

See above.