AArgh... neighbors

[Ann]

"Natty Dread" expounded:

She's reading into me what lives in her.

[Ann]

"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Yes, it is. My opinion is I mind my own business (I'm not telling you to mind yours, I'm just saying what I feel, and how I live). I've said throughout this thread I wouldn't live in a managed area, that seems to drive some people to hysterics. So what? So I don't want to live like that. Others do. Whatever.

This all started over cutting down trees. I live in a semi-rural area, there just aren't bylaws against cutting down trees. Maybe someday there will be, when more and more people build up the area. I'll be gone to Maine by then.

[Vox Humana]

In case you missed this recently I will repost as I see no reason to reinvent the wheel.

"Oh my god, I haven't been on here for years. I scan down, open a post and its Ann from Massachusetts. It must be 4 or 5 years since I stopped by here and you are still at it, being a nasty, know it all bitch. I would have thought a house would have fallen on you by now. Must be a very sad life you have lead."

I would just add that for someone who claims that nothing is any of her business, you sure have a way of getting into everyone's business. Oh, and look out for falling houses, it's tornado season.

[Doug Kanter]

Well, I think it's clear that if someone wants to cut down a tree because they want more sun, or they just hate raking, that's one thing. But, cutting one down because you THINK it's diseased, when in fact it's totally normal and healthy - that's just plain stupid. Since most people want to see some indication of expertise before they accept advise, I think it's a good idea for townships to offer that advise.

What if the permit is free, but requires a 5 minute look at the tree and a 5 minute talk with the property owner, just to be sure they're not cutting it down for stupid reasons? Would that be OK with you?

[presley]

Years ago I was startled when a Swiss girl of my acquaintance in NYC told me that she hoped to move to the US. When I asked why, she said, "In Switzerland, everyone is in your business - it is quite normal for every one of your neighbors to feel that it is their right and their duty to come over to your house and tell you that your yard has too many weeds, your front stoop and sidewalks need sweeping, you have to put flowers in your flowerboxes, etc..... in America, I don't think people do that". It seems that in many crowded lands (the Netherlands, Switzerland, Japan) - there is tremendous social pressure to maintain appearances, and shame is used as a weapon to keep people in line. However, the US, which was always laissez faire in the past, partly because of its enormous size and the distance of one neighbor from another, is rapidly becoming a crowded country too, especially in certain regions. I think the tremendous energy this thread has generated is a reflection of a change in attitude. People are recognizing on a subconcious level that some of the freedoms (e.g. the freedom to be eccentric) that are possible when people are spread out, start to become problematic when people are in close proximity. Because we are a legalistic nation, I imagine that over time zoning regulations will take the place that shame has in other cultures. But all of that is going to arouse resentment, because it's a change from the values we were raised with.

[Travis]

Looks like a lot of stuff taken out of context and so it is pretty worthless. Just MHO.

[Ann]

"Vox Humana" expounded:

Figures you'd enjoy a troll post. Find all those bitchy posts from me. Oh, I guess because you and I have opposite views on politics that means I'm a bitch. Ok. I can live with it. You are the one that has to live with your hostility. I could feel sorry for you, but I won't.

I see. So, you can express your opinions, but I can't. Get over yourself.

[Ann]

"Doug Kanter" expounded:

I guess I just don't see the need (and money has nothing to do with it). Then again, I wouldn't cut down a beautiful tree for no reason at all. And I wouldn't cut one down that a neighbor loved (we're pretty close around here, and many of us are gardeners, or they've become one living near one :o) ) I see lots being cleared around here and will notice a beautiful oak, and feel bad that it's going to be cut down to make way for some McMansion. Every once in awhile I'll notice a tree being left, purposely, it gives me hope someone who cares is moving onto that lot.

I think Presley has it right. If you live in a metropolitan area, where trees are a bonus, a premium, then rules are needed II guess) - there's a brawl going on right now in Boston over a guy who wants to take down a Norway Maple that the neighbors all love - but it's wreaking havoc with sewer lines, and he wants to redo his backyard and gain a parking space. I can't find the reference right now, but he's the former heahorticultural society or somesuch, he's hardly a slash and burn guy, and he wants to plant two trees to replace what he's removing. I think the outcome is in his favor, but it's escalated to the point where the Boston Globe is covering it. Ok, he's affecting the aesthetics of lots of people. But out here, we're not.

[Ann]

"presley" expounded:

You're right, Presley, however, there are still plenty of places where you can live without too much interference from others.

Thing is, the people who want to control move into an area and then try to enact their controls. VH hopes a pig farm would open near me. More the point, if I chose to move in next to a pig farm, I wouldn't start trying to change the laws nearby to outlaw the pig farm. We have that happen around here all the time. VH would move next door and spend the rest of her life fighting the pig farm and drive the farmer out of business.

There's a family who have owned a farm for generations in Scituate, it's now a retail nursery. Someone bought the land on the hill above them (it has ocean views) and built several large homes. The people who moved in directly behind the farm didn't like seeing the nursery operations while they gazed at their view. They tried their damnedest to shut them down. Thankfully there are enough people around here to see their property rights eaten up at town meetings thatthey voted these idiots down. They bought their $800,000 house knowing full well the nursery was there. Tough luck for them.

Yes, as things get more crowded some of this will happen. The towns around here pretty much recognize that people buy here because it's small-town New England, and with that come farms, animals, etc. The townies rightfully resent the newcomers who try to change the rules to citify things. If you don't like what goes on in an area, then don't move there. Stick to a nice, governed subdivision and leave the rest of us alone.

[Doug Kanter]

I understand "out here". A friend of mine has 200+ acres "out there". His nearest neighbor is 5 minutes away at walking speed. What he does with his trees affects (pretty much) nobody. But, in a neighborhood like mine, with

1/8 and 1/4 acre lots, that's not always the case.

I think part of the issue here, at least for me, is that I've had direct experience with a couple of neighbors who are intensely ignorant. I hate to see a tree or plant ruined out of ignorance.

[Bourne Identity]

I don't have bylaws either. No homeowners association. However, set by the county I do have deed restrictions and it is a ten thousand dollar fine for cutting down an old growth live oak.

[enigma]

Ann wrote in news: [e-mail]:

fewer & fewer, and mostly in the less temperate areas like Maine or upstate NY (fortunately i enjoy large quantities of snow)

which is why "right to farm" laws have had to be enacted. when i decide to sell & move again, i will specificly be looking for a town /area with such laws in place. as Southern NH becomes more crowded with idiot suburbanites, i have to go through more trouble keeping my livestock... not that there is anything wrong with what i have for a setup, but "well-meaning" busybodies like to call animal control because "there's a dead llama in that yard" (um, no. he's sunbathing. he's perfectly healthy. if you actually *looked* you see ears twitching), or "there is no barn, poor animals". true, but there are 2 three sided shelters on the other side of the hill, but they can't be arsed to ask *me* about husbandry, oh no! they need to call SPCA or animal control... wastes everybody's time (actually, our animal control guy tends to dislike the idiots as much as i do, so he just gives a courtesy call & doesn't bother coming out now)

heh heh. i hate those people with a passion... money doesn't mean you have the right to get your way.

you might push for your town to look into right to farm laws. it's really doing a favor to the NIMBYs... most of them have no clue where thier food comes from. and go to the town meetings & selectmen's meetings. you have to be there to vote down the streetlights & sidewalks, the strip malls & big box stores the suburbanites *have* to have. if they needed them so bad, they should have stayed in the city! lee BTW, China has surpassed the US in meat production. i dunno about you, but i don't want to eat any meat raised in China! i'll keep my own steers.

[Doug Kanter]

Hey...I just noticed...you said "McMansion". You don't like developers who build homes that are as ugly as a fat persons butt in hideous pink sweat pants two sizes too small? Would it please you to have some sort of architectural review process before someone could build one of those nasty homes and clear cut everything in sight?

[Vox Humana]

resentment,

That's very interesting. This discussion isn't new. It comes up on a regular basis. There seem to be two camps. Camp A: If I pay for XYZ then I have unlimited rights. Camp B: We are all interdependent. What you do has an impact on me and therefore I have the right to an opinion and in some cases a right to take action.

I agree with Victoria. The "Camp A" types are just people who haven't had their buttons pushed yet. Everyone has limits.

[Vox Humana]

You might sign-up for one of these weather alert services. That way you will know when houses are likely to be coming your way.

[Janet Baraclough]

The message from Ann contains these words:

I suppose that depends whether you view yourself as the sole owner the land you bought, or just the latest in a long line, the current custodian who will one day hand it on to another by death or sale or inheritance.

What if the tree is many hundreds of years old, or a "champion" of its species, or an extreme rarity, or a special landmark of the neighbourhood? Does someone who pays a mortgage on the tree's patch of soil for a few years, acquire an inalienable right to remove something very rare or special?

Janet.

[Vox Humana]

Stop it. You're being too logical.

[William Wagner]

The question is do tree's have standing...as I try to remember arguments from 30 years ago. Some where John Seed or was it Johnny wrote eloquent about this . Still 30 years hence and SUV's rule.

Bill

[Ann]

Janet Baraclough expounded:

As I've said in another post, I don't cut down trees willy-nilly. But that isn't what this is about. It's about property owners' rights vs. those who love to make rules for others to follow.

There's a gorgeous oak one town over, it's magnificent. I stopped one day and talked with the elderly lady who lived in the house and told her what a wonderful tree it was. She was happy to talk to me about it - and she told me she was worried that when she died someone would cut it down. It's still there, she's gone, we can only hope the new owners see the beauty of the tree and keeps it where it stands.

[Ann]

"Doug Kanter" expounded:

Oh, I can't see controlling it any better than what some of the towns around here are doing, which is at least one acre zoning (although now some towns have gone to two) with limits on how much land can be eaten up by foundation - but that's control I really don't like. The teardowns are pretty sad, too, a perfectly lovely cape over on Powder Point in Duxbury (we call it Deluxebury) was moved to make room for a huge palace (that no doubt will block the view of someone who already lives there).....More people, more rules.

But see, one of my evil dreams is to buy a house on Main Street in Hingham, paint it orange and black, with a nice loud Harley parked in the tin shed out front - the apoplexic fits thrown would be worth the price of admission ;->