[whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west. Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums, calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in containers before putting them in the ground. That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.
And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take photos of the stump three times now. Would I be evil to hope they get fined?
And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed that
*we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem to stop once he gets going. Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]
So freedom is the right to adversely affect the lives of others just because you happen to be standing on property you own?
With freedom comes responsibility, or else we don't have freedom. We would have anarchy. Laws, such as those that prevent the willy-nilly chopping down of mature trees, attempt to balance the freedoms of everyone affected, not just the freedoms of the owner of the lot where the trunk happens to come down.
Simply imposing a tax, as you say your state does, means that only people who can afford freedom are allowed freedom. And that's not freedom at all. Whether or not a tree should be allowed to be cut down should depend on an examination of the particular situation, and not just an examination of someone's wallet.
There are situations when trees should be cut down, and there are situations when trees shouldn't be cut down. I'm not saying that just because a tree gives me shade, my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to cut it down. Nor am I saying that my need for an unobstructed view mean that my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to construct a cellular phone tower on his or her front lawn, either. The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important consideration, nor should it be the only consideration.
We live together on this planet. Being rich enough to own land, or rich enough to afford fees or taxes shouldn't give someone a higher right to impose on my right of freedom.
Are you saying that I should need permission to remove a tree that makes a mess so that I do not disturb my neighbor's garden? That is what the OP was complaining about.
So society should decide whether that tree comes down? Does not sound like freedom to me.
Nope, the tax only comes into play when you cut down a significant number of trees. The income from the logs more than pays the tax. I ran into this unexpectedly when I cleared two acres of my lot to put in an orchard, small fruits and vegetables. I suppose by your logic I might never have my beautiful garden if some nut thought that the trees should stay.
Sure glad that I do not live in such a place.
Who decides in your world?
Who decides?
In my world you are free to do as you please as long as it is lawful. So am I. That is freedom.
How about neighbors that cut YOUR trees! That's what I had to deal with. I feel for you though. I love my shade garden, too. Your new neighbors sound like they are clueless. Hope you have someplace to put the plants you saved. Karen
Yea, I guess it does, if that's how you want to look at it. If I own the property, and I want more sun where a tree shades, then I can cut the tree down - without asking anyone's permission (and here in MA we don't have to pay a tax on it). At least that's the way it works around here. I wouldn't want it any other way.
So clear-cutting forests, strip mining, damming of rivers and all other kinds of mass environmental damage is fine with you as long as the owner of the property is the one doing it?
If you can cut down your tree, why can't a lumber company clear-cut an entire forest? What if your neighbor was a farmer, and the trees you cut down resulted in erosion that wiped-out his entire crop? You owned the land the trees were on. Didn't you have the right to cut them down regardless of what damage it did to the environment or economy?
I'm sure glad it's not your way in most places in this country. I'm glad that most places have sensible land use rules that address environmental concerns, and who owns the land is not the only criteria used to determine if something can be done. That kind of thinking goes more with a feudal system than it does with a free society. (Note that it's a free society, not a bunch of free individuals. That's anarchy.)
-> [whining mode] New neighbors next door- to the west.
-> Their first week in they've cut down a *beautiful* 30 year old Black Olive
-> tree that shaded my entire front garden- full of shade plants. Anthuriums,
-> calatheas, ferns, teeny little gems that I had cherished for years in
-> containers before putting them in the ground.
-> That garden is only one year old- and now I am having to reorganize the
-> whole darn thing. Plants are wilting faster than I can transplant them.
->
-> And I thought our town had an ordinance against this sort of thing without a
-> permit- guess that explains the city trucks I've seen stopping to take
-> photos of the stump three times now.
-> Would I be evil to hope they get fined?
->
-> And I know about Black Olive maintenance issues- I have one. But had they
-> bothered to live here a while before killing trees they'd have noticed that
-> *we* always keep their walkways pressure cleaned- husband just can't seem to
-> stop once he gets going.
-> Not feeling too good about my new neighbors right now. [/whining mode]
Some people just hate trees. When I was a kid my step-father cut down a beautiful weeping willow tree in our backyard. Later, after I moved out, he cut down the tree in the front yard, too.
A sure sign that a person is losing a debate is when they extend the subject to a ridiculous extreme. We were talking about one tree and you have tried to extend the same principles to earth scorching.
My response was to your earlier message that said::
So it was you that opened the scope of the discussion beyond that one tree.
A sure sign that a person is losing a debate is when they accuse someone else's point as being a "ridiculous extreme" instead of addressing the issue.
So how does the world work in your view that all it should take to cut down trees is to pay a tax? Or do you really have some additional criteria as to who has the freedom to do that on their property, and who doesn't? Apparently you're in favor of you having the right, but when someone else clear-cuts a forest, that's a "ridiculous extreme", and isn't covered by your ideas of freedom.
So where do you draw the l "There are situations when trees should be cut down, and there are situations when trees shouldn't be cut down. I'm not saying that just because a tree gives me shade, my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to cut it down. Nor am I saying that my need for an unobstructed view mean that my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to construct a cellular phone tower on his or her front lawn, either. The situations need to be considered on their own merits, and in whole. The ownership of the land involved may be a factor in who can initiate consideration of the situation. It may, in some situations, be the most important consideration. But it shouldn't always be the most important consideration, nor should it be the only consideration."
Is that a "ridiculous extreme"?
If you've got a point, make it. Or do you want to stand on your "End of conversation" comment? If that's all you had to say in response, then you wasted your time. You said nothing. You haven't been the least bit convincing.
So do you believe that a property owner should be able to cut down all the trees they want without regard to others (so long as they can afford to pay the tax), or is that not your position? And if that's not your position, where are you drawing the line, and why? And how do you justify it compared to my "ridiculous extreme" position?
Oh that sucks! Can't you put up some shade cloth in a diamond shape till you can transplant in the fall? Doing this now in Florida is not the ideal thing.
The trees on my property are all numbered, tagged and come with a huge fine if cut down, period. I believe the fine is ten thousand dollars each tree. Thank goodness they have that.
Actually, in many places trees in the front yard are not on someone's property - they're on city property. Check out your lot lines, you may be surpised how much of the city's property you're taking care of.
And while I believe in freedom to my own thing, and you to do yours, if I interfere with your peace and enjoyment of your property or vice-versa, even if I do what I do entirely on my own property (or you on yours), then you have a legitimate grievance (and vice versa). Freedom to my own thing ends where your right to peace and quiet begins. And vice versa.
Then there is the genral rule that trees in the city are good for everybody, not just those on whose property they happen to grow. So everybody has an interest in preserving them (or cutting them down if they get dangerously rotten, etc.)
The closer we live together, and the more of us live together in one place, the less individual freedom there can be. Aren't you glad you live in a society that believes that the nmecessary compromises should be governed by law, and not imposed by bute force?
Aren't neighbors grand! I had an elderly couple living next door for years. They took great care of the place, were friendly, and made an effort to do some gardening. They moved last July and some trashy woman moved in along with her nephew and son. They have three cars, a truck, and two motorcycles. Rather than shift the cars, they space them out in the driveway so they can weave around the vehicles when they need to go somewhere. The driveway is rather short, so they have to park across the sidewalk and one car is parked so the rear half of the car in the street.
Last year they cut the grass three times. This year they set the mower deck so low that it scalps the grass, presumably so they won't have to mow very often. On Mother's Day weekend, the woman bought a flat of petunias. She planted a couple of cell pack, distributed a few more around her beds, and left a half-full flat in the bed next to the garage. She hasn't touched the plants since, so now there are half-dead annuals, still in the cell packs, sprinkled around the yard. Unfortunately, she hasn't trimmed, edged, or weeded since she moved in and there are huge weeds and saplings growing all over. Two weeks ago she decided to clean-up a bit, but after a few minutes she abandoned the job leaving her tools and a black plastic drum liner in the yard next to a couple gallon nursery liners with dead plants she bought last fall but never planted. There are soda cans, cigarette butts, dog toys, and assorted lawn furniture strewn around the yard. One would think that between her fat ass and the two "study" bubbas and their illegitimate children they could manage to clean-up the place but they seldom leave the house, choosing to stay sealed inside with the AC running when the temperatures are in the 60s! When they do come outside they give us a cold glare or pretend we don't exist. I see some tall shrubs in my future!
Who said any of the above other than you? Stretching your reach a bit, aren't you? But that just means you've run out of reasonable argument.
I can cut down any tree I want on my property. As I should be able to. You go ahead and live in your controlling environment, I promise I won't move next door to you. And thankfully most of New England feels as I do.
1) People sometimes think they can cut down huge trees without the help of a professional. But, there's a certain order in which to do these things, to assure that falling branches don't cause problems. To use the analogy of a building permit, which most people accept, why not have a permit process for removing trees? Let's face it: A significant portion of the population is just plain stupid. Sounds like a good idea to have someone knowledgable stop by, interview the budding lumberjack, and make sure they have a proper plan in place for 1000 lb chunks of falling wood. I also think it would be wise if the permit required the lumberjack to pay every single penny of a neighbor's property damage. Override their deductible, in other words. Most decent people would offer this, but some people aren't decent.
2) A library is a place where OTHER people go to read about trees and plants. So, we have people who MIGHT want to take down a tree for the wrong reasons, after doing absolutely zero research. Example: When I moved to my new house last September, the old lady across the street came over and said EXACTLY this: "Hi...my name is Helen. Let me tell you about that stupid tree of mine, before it upsets you". Her "problem" is an ancient sycamore which has the nerve to drop bark on her lawn all the time. At certain times of year, it blows across the street to my property. I don't mind. That's what sycamores do, like lobsters moulting. But, she is convinced that the tree is diseased, and that 3 tree services and a guy from the township are withholding information from her. She's probably telling other people that
*I* am in error, too, by telling her that the tree is normal.
So, why not have someone from the town stop by, find out her reasons for removing the tree, and if the problem is "mess" or "maintenance", see if the neighbors like the tree enough to pitch in now and then? If not, give her the permit. My crazy neighbor has a lawn guy who handles leaves & bark, but if she didn't, I'd be happy to wander over there and rake up the bark. Tree saved, problem solved.
Why should this matter to you? A big shade tree is worth however many tons of air conditioning. The number doesn't matter, but it's large. Got any idea how much heat is radiated by an unshaded blacktop driveway? Which magical, easily replaceable and 100% clean source to you get electricity from?
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