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What, you want me to post examples of her excesses? I think not. This newsgroup shouldn't be used to denigrate people of color, to belittle one faiths service to our country, or a bully-pulpit to imply that she is more pious than Richard Goldstone <http://www.goldstone-report.org/ .
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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Billy must be punished.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/The_World_of_Peer-to-Peer_ (P2P)/Networks_and _Protocols
Then again he must be praised. Would anyone say he is a gardener besides me? He knows how to grow things with low level energy input. With crude ~$ 75 would you not find this useful?
I fall into the latter camp and wonder why folks who can't handle Billy just don't kill the (Insert obscenity of choice here) thread. Group think alike when out of fashion yea right. Know everything I've been instructed to know Yea right.
If you looked at the site that Frank thought was useful and then looked at the next link the word WINGNUT craws in.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,715138,00.html
deals with oil running out note how Russia becomes a German friend and Israel is diminished. .
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

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Thank you for those kind words, Bill.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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Faith in this case is just a fig leaf to theft. The decision to chase away the Palestinians was made when they realized that they could. Prior to that, all possibilities were in play.

I'm afraid my sanity has never been a captive of reason, and I do enjoy life, celebrate life, and wish life to others.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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Ahh.. You do know me, I do base my life on "reason", that is why I must always keep looking at my presuppositions. If they are flawed the reasoning will lead to false conclusions. Keep me in check, if my presuppositions are flawed.
The reason I state enjoy life, it is my down fall not to do this. I get trapped into a routine that can be detrimental. I make notes to try something new or different every so often.
--
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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Many and I say MANY in the world, want that five star garden and

Why do you say that? Or rather, on what evidence do you make that statement?
If I were to lust after any 5 star garden that I know of, it would be the garden at 'Highgrove' owned by HRH Prince Charles. That garden is run on very strict organic principles.
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If HRH garden is five star and uses NO artificial chemicals I will be surprised. Show me a lawn that has no dandelions in the spring and I will show you someone that uses chemicals. The word "organic" also has different meanings from place to place. Some places the product "seven" is organic, is it in your book?
I will say it is possible to have that five star garden without chemicals. It will require large numbers of people to pull every weed by hand, remove each and every bug by hand, wash every leaf with soap and water by hand. It is beyond the reach of the average person.
First, I use natural methods in my gardening. One will not have that five star lawn without the use pesticides and artificial fertilizers. My lawn is full of weeds. In Michigan, if your want those fantastic looking show stopper roses, you will need a full arsenal of chemicals to keep them fantastic looking. Those pesky japanese beetles can wreck a rose garden in a short time.
Using organic systems that use biological methods never completely solves the problem. It almost always comes down to a predator vs prey scenario. One will only reduce the number of pest not completely get rid of them. Organic methods at best will have a three or four star garden. Many that earn their living by selling super looking healthy plants will use everything in their power to make money. I After using a biological method to reduce the problem, one may not need as much chemicals to finish off the pest or weed. Some call this a form of IPM.
--
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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So, your surprise is your defense? If a person wants a good looking garden, they should use chemicals? What are the benefits of an "organic garden"? What are the detriments to a chemical garden?
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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In my book organic is safer, benefit the Earth. I do not strive for that five star stellar garden. Many do not care about their own health, pride is at stake, those that want that photo stellar garden will use those toxins. They want that weed free lawn, they want those to say WOW when they see their yard. Should they use chemicals that are not beneficial to the earth, if it's legal they will use them.
--
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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Well you need to start looking surprised. Highgrove is certainly a 5 star garden and it (and Prince Charles) are well known for organics. http://www.highgrovegardens.com /
Show me a lawn that has no dandelions in the spring and I

2 things come to mind. 1) Perhaps you just need to look for the weeding fork. I have a very large lawn (we call it the cricket pitch so if you're a USian, think Baseball field) and we got an infestation of Capeweed right through the lawn (it's a flat weed and far worse than dandelion because it flowers on plants even as small as a quarter of an inch and once it flowers, the seeds spread). We hand weeded it. It took us 3 years but now there are no cape weeds. We each had a weeding fork and we'd take the transistor out and sit with our backs to the sun and go for it. It was really a rather pleasant activity. We only did this because we didn't want it getting into our pastures and destroying them. We had nor specific idealogical objection to having 'weeds' in our lawn 2) why should a lawn just be boring old grass? I prefer a lawn with livingstone daisys in it to a pure green swath of fine grass. The former I find appealing and the latter sterile and anal.
The word "organic" also has

What is 'seven'?

Well if by 5 star, you mean manicured and faffed to the degree that the dew is blow dried off the plants each morning then it probably does. If by 5 star you mean well designed, attractive, healthy, no infestions of pests that can't be dealth with by the wildlife, then I wouldn't agree with you. I have a friend who is as poor as a church mouse but she and her husband have one of the most glorious gardens I've ever spent time in. They have what I call 'the eye'. They could design a pigeon house and a 20 sq ft area around it and have it looking like it should be in a lifestyle mag. They have no help in the garden, never have had, can't spend much money on it but use the dung from their cows and ducks liberally and because they have to live very frugally to cope, a lot of their garden decorations are finds from the tip that they either repair, renew of retizz in some way. It's beautiful and everyone in this district says so.

What you've just described says to me that these supposed gardeners are not growing to the local conditions. That to me does not say '5 star' because it's not approriate for the place where the garden is located.

Here I think you've hit the point where you and I approach gardens differently. I loath those sorts of gardens. Bugs are part of life and they are interesting. and not all bugs are harful but in order to get rid of the ones considered to be 'pests' then there would be nothing else alive except the anal gardener.

Huh?
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The views I state are subjective, they are just my opine without facts. I still hold to these views and could be wrong. My lawn is about three acres, no way am I going hard weed it :) I will live with the weeds. I also do not want to poison the chickens, which does a nubbier to the lawn.

http://www.bayercropscienceus.com/products_and_seeds/insecticides/sevin.html

True here, I love the looks of of those five star gardens. But I favor the earth over looks. But I do not loath the others. I like the view of those artificial garden ornaments in gardens also. But I will never use them because of of cost, I am more functionality than good looks.

IPM, Integrated Pest Management. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_pest_management
--
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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I love the description of your lawn, Farm1. I've tried for years to get daisys to grow here and so far, no luck. (But the golden rod is in bloom right now.)
Kate
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Thank you for the kind words Kate. I've never understood the 'only one species' 'lawn' mentality. For me, a 'lawn' is just a swathe of grass like growth that keeps down dust and stops your footwear getting clogged with mud in wet weather and thus stops both mud and dust ending up in the house. (But then I live in the country and I don't have nice neat paths and wear nice neat shoes or have nice clean dogs or a nice neat and clean husband. I'm just as likely to need to bring some ailing animal into the house or to have to come in dripping with animal goo depending on the animal emergency du jour).
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be given> wrote:>> The word "organic" also has

Sevin is carbaryl and it's a well known nasty! How could THAT be considered organic????? And anyway it's is banned here in Oz according to this article: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/banned-chemical-on-shelves-despite-fears-it-can-harm-health/2007/10/21/1192940905073.html
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Beneficial insect, or pest, Sevin kills them ALL. <http://www.gardentech.com/pdf/msds/Sevin%20Concentrate%20MSDS%20Nov08_.p df>
--
- Billy
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Years ago about 30 the dreaded gypsy moth appears and folks started to get Sevin delivered by air plane. I did not sign up and I placed back plastic trash bags on my property line. I'm a real bastard according to many folks and my brother in law was one who thought so. A few year goes by and then it is bacteria thuraginis (SP) as the weapon of choice. Meanwhile our oaks just went on and with no spraying endured the onslaught I even read that the oaks did change the taste of their leaves. Nature what will discover next ? A happy ending sorry no. Now there is a blight called Oak Scorch that is sweeping through and the bottom line is once noticed too late and no cure. I'd guess 40 % of my forest is dead now and next year who knows.
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0JfdP36kI

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says...

I'm with you on that one...
...and the Duchy Home Farm went organic in 1986.
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@yahoo.com says...

and finished the transition in 96.
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It wasn't meant as an insult. I thought you were trying to be funny.

To stay way form "Trojan Horses", no matter how good the road apples are.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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No, I really do enjoy the way you phase those statements. They have those subtle barbs that I find fastening. I use them verbally when I run into those that iI physically run into. Especially to those that have a different political view. An old quote: good artist create, great artist steal :)
The barbs and insults are cool when applied to gardening aspects :)
Enjoy Life... Dan L (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)
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