Some of the reasons I don't spray pesticides ...

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Every spring I notice at least one or two colonies of bumble bees living in the garden. They do a fabulous job of pollinating in the early spring, long before the other pollinators appear. They feast on the Pulmonaria and Vinca from early April on, and then get busy with the myriad, sweet-smelling blooms of the wild black currant in mid-month. No blooms in the garden wants for their attention all season long.
A big clump of ladybugs hibernated somewhere at the base of the plum tree. They marched out one sunny spring morning and got right to it. Their children and grandchildren have been controlling the aphids, not just on the fruit trees and the roses, but in most of the garden as well.
I grow an abundance of flowers for bees and butterflies on the sunny south facing slope ... and if you grow them, they will come. The Monarchs are starting to show up now, fluttering among the echinacea and the butterfly bushes. Sometimes, in the fall, I see them swarming overhead before they head south across the lake.
I leave the seed heads in the wildflower slope up for the winter. By early spring, all the seeds have been eaten by local birds and the hungry migrants returning from places I'd rather be.
EV
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yes, keep them hungry and they'll eat anything. but keep them away from those cherries when close to rpiening, or they'll leave you none.
:-)
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"Gard@Gard.info" wrote:

Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing. :)
EV
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EV wrote:

You're describing the old European lady beetles we all know and love. The imported Asian lady beetles certainly eat fruit. I've seen them by the hundreds in my apples; I don't think they will attack a perfect apple, but once yellow jackets or birds or something make a little hole in the apple, the ladybugs go after it. They enlarge the hole, which then attracts more ladybugs.
They are a big problem for grape growers because when they get inside the grapes, they stink up the juice when the grapes are crushed and they can easily ruin the wine. At least with a ladybug infested apple, you can see them.
BTW, they also bite people.
Bob
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zxcvbob wrote:

Interesting. I hadn't heard of this. But I did find some puzzling evidence on my plums. The first time I saw them years ago, I thought they were ladybugs that had somehow died just before becoming fully formed adults. I thought they were must resting on the fruit to morph and had died. Then, when everyone brought up plum curculios as a big probelm on plums, I checked some sites to see what they looked like, and though my bugs don't look like the adult PC, I thought they might be a pre-adult stage not shown. Now I'm wondering again.

The stupid thing is that the asian ladybugs were imported as beneficials in vast numbers. Now, thanks to them, native ladybugs have been extirpated almost everywhere the asian has been introduced.
Good intention, very bad idea. I get the chills whenever I hear about another insect they want to release to combat some alien that was accidentally imported and has no natural enemies. Importing alien bugs to battle alien bugs or plants is a dumb idea at best.
New studies show that the main advantage that alien imports (insects, mollusks and plants) have is that their usual parasites don't exist here. Whereas they may be preyed upon by a dozen parasites on their home turf, here there are just a few at most.

This I know! :-D The first few times I transported ladybug larvae to the rose buffet by hand, the little buggers bit me. I transported them in plastic cups after that. They're now everywhere so I don't have to move them around. I didn't introduce them here. They were very well established when I moved here.
EV
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:) Lady beetles are carnivorous. They prefer soft bodied insects such as :) aphids, but will also eat other bugs, including their own kind. I've :) documented them in the larval stage cannibalizing one another. Ladybugs :) don't eat fruit or vegetation of any kind ... and that's a good thing. :)
Most are carnivorous. Mexican bean ladybug, aka Mexican bean beetle and the squash ladybug are plant feeders. ...I believe the reason the larvae cannibalize each other is to get a protein that triggers the the stoppage of the the juvenile hormone that now allows them to pupate and become an adult.
Lar. (to e-mail, get rid of the BUGS!!
It is said that the early bird gets the worm, but it is the second mouse that gets the cheese.
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that's beautiful. thank you.

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snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net says...

allergic wife - I do :-).
I've tried traps and spray cans - Orkin is getting called Monday.
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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First off, I'm curious, does Orkin come out after midnight? Because if the nest is assaulted in the daylight hours, most of the wasps won't be in it, & it will take ghastly amounts of extra-poisonous toxins sprayed more places than just the nest to get rid of them, & if there is ever going to be a good chance of anyone getting stung by generally-innocuous wasps, it will be while the Orkin dude is screwing around the nest.
Yellowjackets are gardeners' friends, as they eat garden-chomping insects. A single yellow-jacket nest in a garden will be cleaning out aphids, leafhoppers, beetle larvae, flies, & all manner of garden-munchers at a fantastic rate. They also disperse trillium seeds, which imitate a meat or insect odor that causes yellowjackets to cart away the seeds & drop them elsewhere when they figure out it isn't meat.
Paperwasps abandon their nest after a single use, so their nesting presence is temporary. If it WERE necessary to move one it could be wrapped in plastic at night & carted away, as none of the colony will be outside the nest at night; poisoning would not be necessary.
I've known many people who had serious even life-threatening allergies to bees or wasps, but none thought the best way to deal with it was to poison the garden & inevitably their pets, their kids, themselves, & all the beneficial insects in the vicinity. My grampa had a bee allergy sufficient that he kept a kit handy in case he was stung, but that didn't keep great-grampa from keeping honeybees, & while my life overlapped grampa's, he was never stung that I knew of & never had to use the kit.
Wasps don't have to be nesting in the garden to be in the garden; you'd have to poison all the surrounding yards if their mere presence incited such a phobia. The best way to deal with them is personal calmness. You could offer wasps a greasy chunck of fried chicken & let them crawl all over your hand in great numbers & the happy little buggers would never sting you (they might accidentally nibble you if your fingers are greasy enough to be mistaken for the meat). You could brush them off your shoulder or off your sandwich with the back of your hand & they wouldn't sting, though they might dart over your hand to get back on the sandwich.
At a recent lakefront gathering for a Golden Anniversary party, the primary picnic area had a large colony of ground-wasps nearby. Grandkids & great-grandkids of all ages were running around; people were eating shitloads of meat; & the wasps were truly a nuisance trying to get their share of the food. But even with a dozen rowdy kids running about, & everyone's hands shooing wasps away from food, not one person was stung, & the only complaint became that meat-eaters had to go indoors to finish their meals in peace. I'd frankly still like to get rid of that particular nest if meat was going to be eaten around there regularly, but it would never be an allergy issue because those critters wouldn't even sting the kids who were testing the limits of wasp docility.
They're not highly aggressive. I have lived around yellow jacket nests for half a century & have never been stung by a paperwasp or ground yellowjacket. I was once stung by a mud-dobber, but that was because I leaned against it by accident & it was trying to get loose; mud-dobber wasps ordinarily won't sting under any circumstance, their stinger being for hunting much more than defense; they don't even defend their little mud-nests. As a kid I once laid down under a swarm after a paperwasp nest had had rocks chucked at it. Several of us kids lay perfectly still & watched the swarm. At their angriest still it was a cinch not to got stung.
Ground-dwelling & paper-nest wasps are only aggressive when their nests are mucked with, so the best way to deal with them is by marking the location noticeably & giving them some space. Nearly all wasp attacks are the fault of people attacking the nest, even with freezing aerosols & pesticides the wasps can still manage to be defensive as death is not instantaneous. When their nest isn't mucked with, they're very easy to live with.
There are two understandable reasons to not tolerate a nest; allergy is not one of them since there'll still be plenty of wasps from elsewhere nearby. But if a paper nest is built right outside the door, the mere opening & closing of the door could make the colony feel threatened, so it would have to be zapped at night with freeze-spray, wrapped in plastic, & taken away (we had one on our front porch for a season however & the wasps were so little trouble we failed to notice the papernest on the ceiling until after the season was over & the nest was abandoned). The second reason they might not be tolerated is for nesting right by a bar-b-cue or picnic site. Although not apt to sting they can be so happy about all the meat people are bringing to them that they will descend dozens at a time onto every picnic plate & make it hard to eat in peace. If becoming vegetarian isn't an option, then the picnic-site nest won't be very tolerable.
But if one is lucky enough to have a nest in a corner of the garden where one needn't be digging, or high in a tree where the colony is never threatened, it should be cause for thanks, as they are assisting the garden every minute they are active.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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I don't know what part of the planet you live in, but in the Midwest here, the yellow jackets can sometimes be a big problem. Haven't seen many this year, but previously, they went after my peaches. I had one good sting when I tried to pick up a fallen peach on the ground, and it took a lot of antihistamine to quiet that one down.
EV also doesn't seem to be growing fruit, or she would not be so complacent about apple maggots, plum curcullio's, etc. The only time I stop spraying is when the blossoms are out, since I don't want to kill my pollinators (bees).
Sherwin Dubren
paghat wrote:

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More & more orchards are going organic. Clearly your love-affair with deadly toxins all over your fruit isn't necessary, so yr just foolin' yourself to adhere to slogans of the 1950s when DDT was heralded as the savior of the planet. One of the things the organic orchards encourage is a healthy wasp population, & don't worry too much that wasps do also feed on fruit that has already fallen to the ground & burst open. It's true, though, that chemical-dependent non-organic gardens so screw up the balance in their orchards that they end up with MORE harmful insects & thus need MORE toxic chemicals.
A study conducted by Washington State University from 1994 to 1999, & reported in NATURE & elsewhere, showed conclusively that orchard productivity was greater in organic farms than for those which depended on pesticides & other chemicals. Furthermore, in taste tests for the organic & non-organic, the organic fruits were the hands-down winners.
In the WSU studies, the organic group did not use synthetic pesticides or fertilizer, but made use of organic compost, mulch, pheromone-mating disruption of harmful insects, Bacillus thuringiensis, & hand-thinning of fruit. The non-organic farms used a conventional array of synthetic fertilizers & pesticides (inclusive of herbicides) & chemical fruit thinners.
The study concluded that organic orchards ranked #1 for environmental AND economic sustainability. Larger crops sold for more money from the organic farmers; the non-organic farmers not only ended up with smaller & inferior harvests that earned them less money, but they had higher costs from all those ghastly chemicals.
A similar study on organic vineyards was conducted by Cornell University. One of their organic techniques (to control harmful insects) was to maximize the population of predatory wasps. Similar studies in Vermont corn crops, & Idaho potato crops, found organic methods of pest control completely effective. Yet another WSU study of pear orchards found that harmful insects in the orchard were controlable by not mowing the surrounding fields so often, as vibrant meadows were attractive habitats for such beneficial insects as, ahem, wasps.
As a wonderful bonus, the organic farmers all report that insect pests become fewer year by year -- whyich is not true for the chemical-reliant planet-poisoners.
That's just the science conducted in the field with real orchards, not one person freaked out about wasps & convinced the wasps will get all their fruit if the poisons are insufficient.
So when I hear someone claiming the wasps are so horrid they have no choice but to poison their orchards, then pretending that stopping for a couple weeks while there are flowers is all it takes to not harm bees, I don't give them much credibility.
This is also why "conventional" chemical-reliant orchards are selling out & letting their land be carved up for development, but ORGANIC orchards are the fastest growing segment segment of US, Canadian, & European agriculture.
So to paraphrase you, I don't know where on the planet yhou've been, but not in a healthy orchard lately. And thanks for the warning that you harvest your peaches off the ground -- that'd make yours one of the e-coli orchards besides toxic as all hell!
-paghat the ratgirl
--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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Hey Rat Girl, I am sorry I don't belong to your church of the organics. I have visited organic orchards, and see a lot of spoiled fruit on the ground. I have tried organic sprays, and from my experience, they don't work. I loose very little fruit to insect damage. There is no good organic spray for Apple Maggot, etc. The organic sprays are a pain
to use. For example, Surround leaves an ugly film on the fruit, which would make insect damage almost preferable. Organic sprays and other preventatives have a long way to go to get me to use them. Having a small backyard orchard, I value ALL of my fruit, and am not willing to sacrifice a good portion of it on the alter of organics.
Sherwin D.
paghat wrote:

And plenty of them are going out of business.

You are in a dream world if you think the helpful insects can stop these pests. These wasps do not go after my fallen fruit, as I do a good job of cleaning that up. They punch holes in the fruit on the tree, and go at it.

I don't believe it. I personally know organic orchards where they loose a good portion of their fruit.

How can pesticides effect the taste of the fruit? On the contrary, some organic orchards are limiting their selection of fruit to varieties with more resistance to pests and fungicides. However, these varieties are not the very best tasting of those available. Unfortunately, it seems like the best tasting fruit has the most susceptibility.

Thats because the public is being bambozeled into thinking that organically grown fruit is so much more healthful that the consumer winds up paying sometimes double the price for it. Most of these pesticides are burn't off by the sun. Also, anyone with brains will wash all the fruit they grow or buy, even if it claims to be organically grown. I find the organically grown fruits and vegetables in my stores is not worth the premium prices asked. I just do a good job of washing it. The fruit I grow is controlled so that I don't
spray trees that are due for picking in the next few weeks.

If you think that nature will take care of things for us, just go into a wooded area where you will find wild fruit trees, or those from a deserted orchard, and look at the fruit condition. It is usually attacked like crazy.

Not in my neighborhood.

It's not just the wasps that are the problem. In fact they are usually one of the lesser pests. You will be happy to know I use 'organic' traps to catch them with apple juice as a lure. See, I am not close minded about organics, but I think they can only solve part of the problem.

The bees are most susceptible to harm when they are feeding on the pollen from fruit blossoms. I have never found any dead bees around my trees.

Possibly because there are big bucks now in selling overpriced organic products.

I will match my home orchard any day to yours, because there are other ways to contaminate the area, like not keeping it clean.

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I do believe that things are different in different parts of the country. On the west coast, I have seen unsprayed plum and apple trees from Seattle to the Bay Area (including Portland and Eugene) producing prolifically. In the Bay Area itself, I have seen countless citrus, also unsprayed. Evidently the climate does some things to a variety of pests, or simply the apple trees in those urban areas are too few and far between for apple maggots to prosper. I do have maggots in my two apple trees in SE MI, and I just ignore the trees because anyway there are numerous apple trees about 300 yards away (well within range).
For many diseases, it is clear that a fat layer of wood chips, plus some manure every now and again, rock dust and wood ash occasionally, vastly improves the tree resistance. I just met a guy who gardens in Hawaii, which is disease hell. he has a backyard orchard with over 30 fruit trees/shrubs, and he does nothing to any of them except feed the soil (well, prune too). I have myself several pear trees, also unsprayed, which produce 50% clean fruit - good enough for me. But the Midwest seems to be worse than the West Coast as far as fruit pests.
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deja.com says...

"natives" would ask me what was the biggest change, expecting me to rave about the climate, the cultural stuff, etc.. My answer was always the same "You don't have any bugs!".
So yes, things do vary from one part of the country to another.
So does the variety of yellow jackets and their agressiveness :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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When I lived in California, perhaps one mile from my place there was an abandoned Red Delicious orchard. It kept pumping out, year after year, the sweetest apples I have ever eaten. They were too sweet, in fact (I much prefer the tart, complex northern varieties, such as Northern Spy or Liberty. And even when it comes to sweet apples, the Michigan Golden Delicious are superior to anything I have tried). No bugs, no blemishes, no spray, no irrigation (no rain for five months before harvest) or fertilization. Incredible. It would take minutes to go there and pick a bushel for the week (I am much the fruitarian in season, ten apples a day is not too much if they are at their top).
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Many very odd things in what you wrote, bordering on phobic.

That you find better agricultural practices a religion indicates you are not thinking rationally to start with. Your previous admission that you spray CONSTANTLY except for that brief time when the orchard is blooming shows how extreme your case is. I wouldn't call your own behavior cultic, merely dangerouslky mnisguided.

Of course fruit falls to the ground. Unlike your orchard, most farmers do not HARVEST from the ground. You said explicitely that the wasps that attack fruits on the ground is the reason you have to poison your orchard continuously. Wasps feed & drink at the wounds of damaged fruits, yes, but worse, fruits harvested after they fall are a common source of of e-coli.

Organic principles does not mean a quick fix spray. You clearly don't know squat about the topic, & it's unfortunate for you & the helath of your family, your neighbors, your environment. Organic would define the way you mulch, the way you mow or don't mow nearby meadows, the types of predator inesects you encourage from the wild or introduce, PROPERLY TIMED bacterial sprays, much else that is the reason the organic fruit farmers have repeatedly been shown in university studies to produce fruits larger, tastier, & more numerous than chemical-reliant farmers.

By killing everything in sight & spraying continuously. Great.

You're only thinking alternatives to poisons aren't poisonous enough, because you're fabulouslky ignorant of organic methods. Otherwise you'd already know most organic fruit growers do not have apple maggot or plum curculio, the ONLY orchard problems that have no after-the-fact fix that is organic. A properly cared for fully-system organic approach does not allow for the mass-flourishing of a single species of insect in the first place.
With a healthy predator insect population & a proper clean-up problem at the end of each harvest month, your concern about there being no organic sprays for apple maggot does not even apply.
With YOUR system then perhaps it is a perpetual worry -- use of poisons breeds reliance on poisons. For these pests afflict non-organic gardeners to a much higher degree & the real threat posed to organic growers would be neighbors such as yourself whose trees have an increased likelihood of introducing diseases into a larger area.
Your taking "preventative" actions by spraying toxins continuously except for a brief time of flower wouldn't even be a chemical-sucking hilljack grower's answer to apple maggot -- not if they were in their right mind.
Apple maggots can be fully controlled by organic methods, just not by organic sprays. The method is one of the least invasive imaginable: do NOT leave unharvested fruit on the the trees through winter, & do NOT leave apples on the ground to rot & become breeding factories. Unsalable fruit should be heat-composted. Because apple maggots harbor in winter fruits & emerge in spring, that first generation will not exist in properly maintained organic orchards. And as you have admitted to harvesting even the e-coli-ridden fruits off the ground, you shouldn't have apple maggots.
They can still be worrisome because of the bad behaviors of neighboring orchards. When BAD growers introduce these diseases to finer orchards next door, the back-up organic method (sticky-traps shaped like the fuit to be protected) is not the world's best fix, it is true, & some organic growers unfortunatley prefer to not sell organic fruit that year. But a community of growers who all do it right & do not permit fallen fruit to harbor maggots through the winter won't have to make this sorry-ass decision.
Other organic controls for apple maggot includes fruit thinning, which has the added benefit of larger tastier fruits that remain, & the majority of commercial orchards do fruit thinning anyway because shitloads of inferior fruits are not marketable for anything but the low-end for juice, or hog food. Some do the thinning by hand, chemical-reliant growers have chemical methods of doing it, & the organic alternative to the chemical method is a fish oil & lime sulfur combination -- all methods of thinning increase fruit size.
But even in a worst-case scenario, the method you outlined as your method would NEVER be necessary because of two pests difficult to eradicate after bad agricultural practices have helped establish them in an orchard. A "break" from organic principles would be brief & minimimally invasive. The "low spray" technique is unfortunate but some growers use it as a fallback position, though it does harm the marketable price of the fruit thus treated in that year. Organically approved late-season sprays like Entrust do work well on apple maggots, but only when used in concert with year-end ground clean-up, & early season use of kaolin (Surround). It remains that in the majority of organic orchards, unless there's someone right next door doing it very wrong, these additional methods won't be necessary.

This certainly is not true with proper choices & proper timing, so you've just shown again you don't know what you're doing. But certainly if by "pain" you mean they only work if you're knowledgeable about organic methods, then yes, you're right.

Despite studies such as conducted at Cornell & Washington State U. that show the present state of organic orchard methods producese more fruit, tastier fruit, the preferred fruits in the marketplace, you're going to stick with methods that are known to be inferior for the quality & vallue of the harvest. You prefer inferior fruit, toxic fruit, fruit that far fewer people would want to purchase or eat if they knew what you were up to. And you'd rather hitch your waggon to a dwindling & failing argricultural system & avoid the fastest growing & most successful segment of agriculture today.
Some farmers growing annual vegetable crops have to make concessions in order cash in on the growing organics market, but orchard fruit growers gain on every level, because each year organic methods are followed, the orchard becomes healthier & produces better.

Back yard amateurs are the worst enemies of professional, qualified, knowledgeable organic growers. Your toxins spread into finer orchards; you are more apt to spread diseases; you are responsible for the implosion of pollinator & predator insect populations. You also risk the health & lives of everyone who eats fruits that developed in what you admitted was continuous chemical spraying except during the brief time of flowering.
If the science didn't support these statements then your likening organic gardening to a church with an alter for sacrifices would apply. But these are not things that need be taken on faith. Whereas your belief system is not supported by the faith, does require faith in lieu of reason, & does cause human sacrifice. So if being religioius is as big an insult as you would have it, you have just insulted ourself by projecting.
If you love gardening, if you love your orchard, at least LEARN what the organic methods really are before passing judgement on things you have rejected out of hand without a lick of knowledge.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
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"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
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paghat wrote:

No, no! You obviously missed the irony of my statement. What I meant was you pursue this organic kick like a religion.

First of all, I spray in about 3 week intervals, during the fruiting season, aside from dormant oil in early spring. I think you have your own flavor of extremism bordering on your cult of eco-purity.

I do not harvest from the ground. I will occasionally pick up a fruit which has fallen which does not look attacked by either insects or critters.

I don't know about your orchard, but I do a daily patrol and clean up any fruit on the ground. Most of it goes on the compost pile, or the garbage if it looks like it has some kind of infection.

Why don't you climb off your soapbox.

I don't know about the chemical-reliant farmers, but I will match up my fruit against any organic gardener for taste, size, etc. Most organic gardeners won't
grow the heritage type fruits I grow, because they are so susceptible to attack.

Yes, when I put in many hours of taking care of these trees, I don't want to see the results go to pot.

Are you making this up?????

And you call me phobic?

Baloney!

As previously mentioned, my orchard is inspected daily and no fruit is left on the ground, and still these pests come. My mulch pile heats up nicely, so I don't think they propagate there. I never admitted to harvesting e-coli-ridden fruits off the ground.

Keeping a clean orchard doesn't work for me. I'm not one of those BAD BAD growers.

I do extensive thinning, as well.

Have you ever had to clean up the Surround junk off your fruit?

Can you supply specific document sources, or else I'm going to think that you are making this all up?

I'll match my fruit any day against an organic gardener.

I may be a backyard grower, but I'm not an amateur. I'll match my knowledge of fruit growing against yours any day. You sound like an elitist snob, certainly someone who thinks they know it all. I don't distribute contaminated fruit. I allow the chemicals to subside naturally in the sun before harvesting, and I carefully wash any fruit I give away, or tell people to do so. The washing is just an added precaution, since most of the chemicals have dissipated by the time I pick the fruit.

It's not the science I'm against, but your trying to cram this stuff down our throats, like it's the gospel.

As a final comment, maybe you know of a friendly preditor that will kill the West Nile bearing mosquitos in my area, or the Asian Longhorn Beetles. I'm sure the municipalities here would like to know about them.
Sherwin Dubren
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You've been unable to credibly or knowledgeably contradict anything I've posted so I won't go over it again, except to reiterate that YOUR continuing notion that organic gardening is merely a cult makes you something of an idiot savant, without the savant.
-paghat the ratgirl
--
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I am not going to let you have the last word on this.
I asked you for specific information on all these university reports about the wonders of fruit grown organically, and you ignore the issue. Give me a document location on the web that backs up your contention of superior tasting fruit from organic orchards.
I have not said that organic prevention is totally worthless. I don't rely on spraying insecticides to do the entire job. I use sticky traps, wasp traps, and even nets around the fruit to keep the bugs from attacking. My only contention is that for the nastier bugs, organic sprays have not yet reached a state of the art where they can do the job. So if it comes to deciding between spraying and losing fruit, I'll choose the later. Also, you have not mentioned spraying for fungicides and organic ways to
prevent those problems. I have used organic sprays, like Rotenone, in the past, and
they just don't do the job. Maybe in your part of the country, you don't have the problems with Apple Maggots, etc. like we have in the Midwest. I would be surprised if you don't have some kind of pesky bugs, but not knowing about Washington State, I can't judge the effectiveness of organic prevention.
I didn't say organic gardening was a cult, but the way you try and push it down our throats gives the appearance of a cult (like this is the ONLY truth, and all gardening nonbelievers will not get into gardener's heaven). Also, your snide remarks against
not believers makes me think that you follow organic gardening like a cult. I know some organic gardeners, and none of them threatens me with fire and brimstone if I don't mend my ways.
Show me actual facts, and real documentation, and proof that organic gardening will work in the really difficult cases, and then I am ready to switch over.
Sherwin Dubren
paghat wrote:

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Excuse me, but organic growers are known for growing varieties which are disease and pest resistant. It's part of the holistic approach to organic growing. I have only tasted bad 'Delicious' apples when they were woody or lay around too long, other than that, they are superior in taste, IMO, to many other varieties of eating apples.
You are also incorrect about "profit motive" since many organic farms are very small, and sell their produce at farmers markets, not on grocery shelves. I have news, the grocery stores hike up the prices, not the growers. For instance, bananas. If you see the word organic on a banana, it's generally a useless term. Bananas normally never need pesticides to produce. In the case of organic bananas, they are grown without the use of synthetic fertilizers. The store hikes up the price because they are in their special organic section. I shop either at the farmers market, or Whole Foods Market and their prices are maybe 5% more than commercially grown foods, which use pesticides and synthetic fertilizers. I know because Whole Foods Market also sells conventionally grown fruits and vegetables, so I see the price side by side in many cases.
Oh, yes, people indeed DO get cancer from the chemicals being used. But since the toxin developers are in bed with politicians, not much will be done about it, at least till we get a different administration. AND, in one month, to take this to another level, you'll once again be able to buy an AK47.
Good morning sunshine.
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