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FarmI wrote:

not directly as they don't "mentate" (there is rumor most people don't either :) ), but if they kill off all of their seed dispersers then they will eventually be outdone by the other plants that are "nicer".
it's an interesting dance that they must do, protect their green stuff from predation, but make their fruits yummy so that they get their seeds moved. Mr. Pollan in _the Botany of Desire_ is very good at observing this dance in several forms.

we can credit medical science for most of this change (not diet). if diet were a major contributor to health i know many children who should be dead. they live off a very restricted diet of primarily heavily processed nutritionally poor foods, but somehow they manage to grow taller than me, they graduate from high school with honors, play sports at a high level, etc.
medical science might even be going fast enough to keep these people healthy and functioning long past what they would be otherwise blowing out kidneys and hearts due to long term poor diet. i believe it's a race at the moment and junk food is winning.
why it is winning is simple, the brain loves sugar, salts and lipids and makes sure to get those. it's very hard to avoid junk food.
songbird
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Please be more careful about your attributions songbird. I did not write anything to which you have responded.
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FarmI wrote: ...

sorry, people are using different versions of quoting than what i am used to.
songbird
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Try to get it into that dormant organ that resides between your ears, that "organic agriculture" doesn't increase flavonids, it simply doesn't suppress them as insecticides do.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid#Potential_for_biological_activity

Flavonoids are widely distributed in plants fulfilling many functions. Flavonoids are the most important plant pigments for flower coloration producing yellow or red/blue pigmentation in petals designed to attract pollinator animals. Flavonoids secreted by the root of their host plant help Rhizobia in the infection stage of their symbiotic relationship with legumes like peas, beans, clover, and soy. Rhizobia living in soil are able to sense the flavonoids and this triggers the secretion of Nod factors, which in turn are recognized by the host plant and can lead to root hair deformation and several cellular responses such as ion fluxes and the formation of a root nodule. They also protect plants from attacks by microbes, fungi[3] and insects. [edit] Potential for biological activity Flavonoids (specifically flavanoids such as the catechins) are "the most common group of polyphenolic compounds in the human diet and are found ubiquitously in plants".[4] Flavonols, the original bioflavonoids such as quercetin, are also found ubiquitously, but in lesser quantities. Both sets of compounds have evidence of health-modulating effects in animals which eat them. The widespread distribution of flavonoids, their variety and their relatively low toxicity compared to other active plant compounds (for instance alkaloids) mean that many animals, including humans, ingest significant quantities in their diet. Resulting from experimental evidence that they may modify allergens, viruses, and carcinogens, flavonoids have potential to be biological "response modifiers", such as anti-allergic, anti-inflammatory,[5] anti-microbial[6] and anti-cancer activities shown from in vitro studies.[7] [edit] Antioxidant activity in vitro Flavonoids (both flavonols and flavanols) are most commonly known for their antioxidant activity in vitro. Consumers and food manufacturers have become interested in flavonoids for their possible medicinal properties, especially their putative role in prevention of cancers and cardiovascular diseases. Although physiological evidence is not yet established, the beneficial effects of fruits, vegetables, and tea or even red wine have sometimes been attributed to flavonoid compounds rather than to known micronutrients, such as vitamins and dietary minerals.[8] Alternatively, research conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute and evaluated by the European Food Safety Authority indicates that, following dietary intake, flavonoids themselves are of little or no direct antioxidant value.[9][10] As body conditions are unlike controlled test tube conditions, flavonoids and other polyphenols are poorly absorbed (less than 5%), with most of what is absorbed being quickly metabolized and excreted. The increase in antioxidant capacity of blood seen after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused directly by flavonoids themselves, but most likely is due to increased uric acid levels that result from metabolism of flavonoids.[11] According to Frei, "we can now follow the activity of flavonoids in the body, and one thing that is clear is that the body sees them as foreign compounds and is trying to get rid of them." [edit] Other potential health benefits [edit] Cancer Physiological processing of unwanted flavonoid compounds induces so-called Phase II enzymes that also help to eliminate mutagens and carcinogens, and therefore may be of value in cancer prevention. Flavonoids could also induce mechanisms that may kill cancer cells and inhibit tumor invasion.[11] UCLA cancer researchers have found that study participants who ate foods containing certain flavonoids, such as catechins found in strawberries and green and black teas; kaempferol from brussel sprouts and apples; and quercetin from beans, onions and apples, may have reduced risk of obtaining lung cancer.[12] Research also indicated that only small amounts of flavonoids may be needed for possible benefits. Taking large dietary supplements likely provides no extra benefit and may pose risks. However, certainty of neither a benefit nor a risk has been proven yet in large-scale human intervention trials.[11] [edit] Diarrhea A study done at Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland, in collaboration with scientists at Heinrich Heine University in Germany, has shown that epicatechin, quercetin and luteolin can inhibit the development of fluids that result in diarrhea by targeting the intestinal cystic fibrosis transmembrane conductance regulator Cl­ transport inhibiting cAMP-stimulated Cl­ secretion in the intestine.[13] [edit] Capillary stabilizing agents Bioflavonoids like rutin, monoxerutin, diosmin, troxerutin and hidrosmin have potential vasoprotective proprieties still under experimental evaluation.[citation needed] [edit]
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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Billy wrote:

"relatively low toxicity" (i.e. they are not completely harmless).
just shot yourself in the foot there...

neutral to supportive to your point, but as mentioned elsewheres we're already getting plenty.

this sounds like a body having to do work to get rid of a substance that there is too much of. i.e. having less of it in plant products is probably putting less stress on the liver (which is in fact one of the things i mentioned originally -- this is a point in my favor if the science holds up).

*ding ding!*

"potential"

"may"

"could"

"may" but that could be due to other factors (like fiber) or other compounds. a true study of flavonols in isolation would be needed to pin this down.
the point to consider further is that there might be the case that everything we currently eat is bad for us in one form or another. some vegetables just might be the least noxious. like i said before evolution is not optimal, there might be other pathways which can be demonstrated to be better. we don't know yet.

"small amounts" which are available in what is grown now. this is not a point in your favor.

"neither a benefit nor a risk has been proven yet"
another point in my favor.

"are still under experimental evaluation"
most of these pretty much prove my initial statements accurate enough for general conversational purposes. good job!
songbird
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says...

I find your attitude tiresome.
It's probably best that I add you to a killfile for awhile.
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phorbin wrote:

good day, i hope you find whatever you are looking for in a decent conversation.
i'll drop it now.
peace all,
songbird
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Come on, shake it, boid, shake it.
--
- Billy
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Billy wrote: ...

i love you too Billy. :)
the grapes look ok, i might get some kind of crop out of them yet this year. the birds are being birds so i'm losing some to pecks and poop damage.
some are being stung and i remove them when seen. only a few have shown signs of rot and i've trimmed them off too just in case that can spread further. for the rest there are plenty showing no sign of rot and good clean loose bunches that should plump up well.
getting them through the rest of the summer will be a challenge and it's so early yet. amazing that a large number are already the size of a nickel (and getting into the safe from black rot zone now).
have a nice day,
now i have to go weed and SAVE THE LEAF LITTER!
songbird
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Pavel314 wrote:

:) last year i got a few bunches of grapes to eat and almost a pint of concord grape jam. that was it, but it was very good. no store bought jam came close.
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