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Only to those not paying attention. My point about organic, before you launched into your unsupported attack on "organic", was the when you get organic, you get more nutrients into your diet. If the enhanced nutrition of "organic" kept you from getting sick, then that would be a good deal wouldn't it? There are an increasing number of studies showing enhanced levels of vitamins in organic produce. More over vitamins have only been recognized for about 100 years. Now there appears to be another class of compounds, flavonols <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid>, which are important to human health. We wondered from your field to point out that part of the benefit of growing organic was to eat healthier foods. Cheap food that lets you get sick isn't such a good deal. Or as they say about Americans, we are over fed and under nourished.

you.
Long story short, charcoal can last 50,000 years, and it can have the added benefit of improving the fertility of the soil.
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- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 18:26:01 -0700, against all advice, something

Cite three.
Thank you.
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<http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-organic-garden/the-case-against-comm ercially-grown-foods.html>
<http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/symposium/organics/delate/
<http://www.rawfoodlife.com/Articles___Research/Organic_vs_commercial_foo d/organic_vs_commercial_food.htm>
<http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/107555301750164244
<http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/susagri/susagri018.htm
<http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html
<http://www.organixentral.co.uk/rutgers.html
--
- Billy
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You probably already know that nitrogen production uses natural gas as its feedstock...
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phorbin wrote:

Yes. The Haber process produces greenhouse gases as a by-product and it is a factor in the overall energy economy as that natural gas could be used (for example) to generate electric power or to run cars. The process can also use other hydrocarbons or none at all.
The haber process can be run from hydrogen produced electrolytically which doesn't generate GHG if you get your electricity from renewable sources but that would increase the price of fertiliser at current renewable electricity prices.
David
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change my reading style to indulge your pretentious self-importance and read your drivel. What happened to "shooting the shit" is a preponderance of shit heads. What do you want on your burger?
--
the Balvenieman
"You know what they say: Once you kill a cow,
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snipped-for-privacy@invalid.net wrote:

are you talking to Billy or me?
usually when people talk to me they include words like sanctimonious, silly or immature. so you have me as confused as a church mouse in a cheese shop.
the usenet has changed a great deal over the years i have been reading and writing. lately i think things are improving...
songbird
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All brain farts, and not one citation. Good luck with that.
--
- Billy
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Billy wrote: ...

you quote the whole thing for a one line reply?
oh, ok, Billy, i see your comprehension is down, read again where i said i composted my reply off-line.
i have a very slow connection, i do not watch tv or load audio via internet unless it's the rare thing i want to wait hours to accomplish, usually i cannot tie up the phone line for that length of time.
i'm mostly here to converse and read about gardening, i'll try to have fun in the process. most of what you write in reply i am aware of and actually agree with in some parts, if you'd read it you'd see. yet there are large gaps even in that time will show. poking at them is just the way i am.
now can you tell me what happened to the art of general shooting the shit? it sure isn't about quoting links back and forth.
good day,
songbird
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Shooting the shit is fine, but without authority, it is just babbling, and logic is only as good as its premise. You quoted links? Citation please.
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- Billy
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Billy wrote: ...

today's authority is sometimes wrong. i worked for 7 people who were authorities and they were a lost cause. and so i don't trust authorities blindly and find most popular works too light on rigor...
because of that i have been trying to get a hold of more studious works lately. i was reading a college level plant physiology textbook a few weeks ago and it ignored so many topics and instead focused on the pet topics of the various contributors.
don't get me wrong, it was a good book for me to read but it was very incomplete and i was afraid that many students who had this as their only plant physiology book would be missing so much.
now i am looking for other good reads, so recommend away and i will line some of them up and see what they have to offer.

if it's valid. ;)

only those you included, but many i did not follow because i was offline (as i am now).

tossing citations back and forth with no personal interpretation on your part isn't a conversation.
tell me when you cite a link what it means to you and how it is lived by you. otherwise you are a shadow boxer.
do you garden? how do you garden? what do you garden?
or i am here to babble then.
songbird
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Great, so to counter balance lack of rigor, you offer none? What do you use to justify your beliefs on up and down, good and bad, right or wrong?

You were reading an anthology by various authors writing about subjects that they supposedly would know the most?

You expected all of plant physiology in one book? Kinda makes you wonder what the other 40 units were all about.

You argue, but give no supporting authority: divine revelation, inspired intuition, bull shit? Who knows? You offer no argument for your denigration of organic food.

Since we haven't done the original work, it's my authorities against your authorities.

you wandering off, or are you jut trying to change the subject?

Looks like it.

--
- Billy
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Billy wrote:

any study of the history of science is rigor enough for the basic arguement i've made here.

it was a textbook called _Plant Physiology_ so i expected a broad overview of plant physiology, but they missed a lot of stuff that should be in a basic PP book.
i'm glad it was detailed as it was in some parts, but it completely ignored many basic plant phenomena. so i need to find some other text that gets those covered.
i've quoted it below so you know which text i'm speaking of.

a college level text should have a broad overview of all aspects of plant physiology even if there is not depth of coverage of some areas it should at least be mentioned and the basics outlined.
here i will give you a link and see if you agree.
http://4e.plantphys.net/categories.php?t=t
i think the following is a more balanced work:
http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/WileyTitle/productCd-EHEP000221.html
but i haven't read it yet. i'm putting it on my request list at the library today.
still that looks to be also set up for talking about only certain kinds of plants and my interests are in other forms which don't seem to be covered by either of these books. i'm going to have to keep looking...
ah, much better:
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
that's on my list now. :) i think i'll bump this ahead of the last since i've already been through most of that already.

denigration? no, no way, healthy skepticism towards the new priesthood yes.

hold it, original work would mean what here? nutritional studies which include liver function tests? long term liver cancer rates vs life span increases? (which is probably available but not really accurate enough because it's not pre-agrichem).

no, i just want to see if you live what you quote.

irrelevance? i don't think i've ever said that organic gardening is irrelevant, what i have said is that it's wise to keep some healthy skepticism.
songbird
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Interesting point, obviously the plants have no idea what chemicals they produce contributes to human wellness nor do they care
and one has to reconcile the fact that we are living longer then ever on mainly a corn syrup diet
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In article

accurately: that factory farming depresses) are flavonoids <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoids> Plant toxins are usually alkaloids that taste bitter, and are normally avoided because they are repugnant.

plants aren't found in the vegetable garden (surprise, surprise), they are found among the ornamentals that are not likely to be eaten.

Make that in spite of corn syrup. Obese, type 2, diabetic children aren't going to increase the life expectancy average.
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you can't make the assumption that because a plant is not poisonous, it is 100% good for you

facts are facts, facts can be stubborn things
I suspect having cheap calories to eat overrides everything else, IMO
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In article <b3ee3ed1-0e4d-41cb-a392-7e7aab3978e8

Life isn't 100% good for us but look at how hard we hang onto it.
There are a lot of assumptions you can't make about plants.

It's not cheap calories so much as it is the type of calories and the combinations they come in.
If by "everything else", you mean reasonable eating habits and common sense, I agree.
I suggest that having sugars, starches, fats and salt in certain combinations acts on the brain in much the way that drugs do.
I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.
Try sugar salt fat acts brain drug study
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I don't have time to supply cites but the truth is out there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
nniua6-oM
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
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wrote:

OMG!!!!!! That is simply appalling! True junk food, but that category includes just about anything that involves any degree of processing!
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Like the man said (I paraphrase), most modern illnesses would go away, if we ate a paleolithic diet.
--
- Billy
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