Return On Investment

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says...

Better give a citation for this one.
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<http://www.wormdigest.org/content/view/89/2/
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden
What use one more wake up call?
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snipped-for-privacy@snip.net says...

...but I wanted songbird to do the work.
That said, I knew about the Euroworms in North America but hadn't thought about their takeover affecting native species.
It stands to reason that they would, and that that they would be a problem.
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It's not a matter of native species. Apparently, northern forests have adapted to piles of un-decomposed leaves. The invasive earthworms do just what all gardeners want them to do, they decompose the leaf litter, thereby changing the forest environment. It is my understanding that this changed environment "may" threaten some species of trees, and plants, but has not done so, so far. Probably need a forester to answer this question.

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- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
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In article <wildbilly-DC0460.08400230062010@c-61-68-245-

Sorry, native species of plant life.
The word "may" is probably playing it too safe.
Now that I've had a bit of a think and before I go out to lay down mulch and encourage euroworm migration into a sandy area most recently occupied by forsythia, it would seem a reasonable bet that some plant species have been lost to Euroworm's penchant for survival in the colder northern climates and appetite for leaf litter.
Gotta fly...
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phorbin wrote: ...

this is a fact, also the removing of the leaf cover opens up the forest to more deer grazing and digging which is very destructive and challenges the previously less exposed species further. it's a keystone change.
and now here in Michigan we have wild pigs getting established. you think deer/raccoons cause garden troubles...
songbird
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And this has what to do with the "organic religion"? Is this ADHD again?
"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"
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Wild Boars in Michigan? Can They survive the Michigan winters? Excellent! I can have Prosciutto! Cool! I have the fresh eggs, soon to have fresh milk and beef. Now pork! No need to raise my own pigs, yesss!!!! I never cared for venison :(
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Enjoy Life... Dan

Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.
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Wikipedia doesn't mention that any plant species have been lost. Why do you? Can you say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that species have been lost?
"SAVE THE LEAF LITTER"
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- Billy
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In article <wildbilly-CE9EA3.21163430062010@c-61-68-245-

A fair comment.
I have just enough time to drink my morning coffee, and rub a few thoughts together and say something mildly irksome. Then I'm away to weed someone's garden.
I'm reasoning on the fly and not claiming my reasoning as a statement of fact. Someone else may have the facts. It's summer busy season and right now I have just a little time for reasoning, and no time for research.
I trust Wikipedia up to a point.
I think it is beyond reasonable doubt that species have been lost but to work that one out properly I would probably have to be able to go to the native peoples' and ask if their oral tradition names plants that have vanished from the landscape and at least correlate the loss with the change in forest floor. -- Or maybe someone's already done the work.
Anyway, coffee's finished. NOT looking forward to today.
I have a giant hogweed to deal with. I'm glad it's in someone else's garden.
Wish me luck.
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Go get 'em. This does seem to be more of a wintery discussion, when we have more time to chew on it. I'm afraid that I let myself get pissed off (note to Aussies: this is American pissed off ;O) The thought that going back to traditional agriculture was going to poison the food supply, is just profoundly dumb. If anything, to be healthy, we should step away from agriculture altogether, and return to hunter-gathering. I know, right now it doesn't seem to have a future either. <http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared _diamond.pdf>
Good luck with that hogweed.
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http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialanimals/earthworms/index . html
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- Billy
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In article

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis (Amazon.com product link shortened) /ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid06815176&sr=1-1
Ch.1, paragraph 2 "In addition to all the living organisms you can see in garden (HELLO) soils (for example, there are up to 50 earthworms in a square foot [0.09 square meters] of good soil), . . ."
--

We were talking garden soils so she segues into forestry. She is either
dense or a troll.
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Billy wrote: ...

we were talking about feeding the world using organic methods vs. current agri-chem-oil.
asides and tangents happen in usenet.
songbird (for most bird species the male sings
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Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 22:50:20 "actually, what i am wondering more and more about is while i'm sure that some of the things that plants make are ok for us, many other substances are either going to be somewhat toxic or neutral and the end result is that the liver is the primary sorting ground. so any nutritional studies which do not analyze long term liver function/toxicity are basically crap.
all these chemicals that plants make to defend themselves from predators (including herbivores/ omnivores i.e. us) at some level will be doing some damage and perhaps organic gardening which increases certain chemicals may be increasing the burden on the liver. we really are not very far along in this sort of "entire system" analysis when it comes to all the chemicals the body can ingest and the waste products and how they are transported and etc... some things are stored in fats and thus in the fatty cells in the body. some things come out of the fats given certain diets and such, etc. all of this is not really completely understood either.
take it all in combination and we are many years from "knowledge" in the sense of completeness, but at least we are on the way if we don't manage to do ourselves in first. it's a race IMO. considering what we knew a hundred years ago we've made a lot of progress, but much of what we know now is still likely to be flat out wrong. i trust science to figure it out eventually, i do not trust "organic religion" any more than i trusted "atkins diet religion" when that became a craze." (quotation marks are mine, lack of punctuation, and capitals, is all songbird's) -------
So that is what we were talking about, this crazy organic gardening thing. You know, the way in which all food was grown before 1945.
So now you propose that eating the way we did before 1945, and reaping the benefit of flavonoids as we did before 1945 is some kind of "organic religion".
--

Then on Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:53:45, I try to show carbon sequestration
in the soil, in part by describing the flora and fauna found in good
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Billy wrote: ...

false. some food was grown organically pre 1945, but much of the rest of it was grown in a kind of slow motion slash and burn agriculture. the slash and burn was not tropical forests, but the result is still the same, the topsoil is used up in many places and there is no cheap fix.
have you made any claims about pre-history and sustainabilty? other than your general waving of the word organic at it, but i suspect that much of what you think about pre-history isn't accurate either. i'll admit i don't know either. :)

it is if science eventually shows that the pathways that flavonoids take in the body are not universally beneficial then my point is valid. i mentioned the liver in specific because it is vital to any debate about nutritional health and various effects from different sources.
also, there is such a thing as too much of a substance not being a good thing. folic acid, vitamin A, copper, selenium, iron, and many others, required in small amounts, but beyond that amount possibly toxic. what makes you think that flavonoids escape that type of problem? do they flush out of the body without any cellular intervention -- does the liver not have to regulate them or their byproducts? i'll admit i don't know, i'm not sure the science is in on them completely. or at least i would be very surprised if any reputable scientist says they are a 100% solved item. there's much we still do not know.

your effort failed, most people agree with me that healthy garden soil does not sequester carbon, for the most part it cycles it.
if you want to argue that changing poor soils to better sequesters carbon then i'll give you that, but that is still a small and limited amount compared to what is actually needed. and then, eventually the poor soil improves to the point where it mostly cycles carbon again, but it is not the same degree of carbon sink as compared to a forest. but even the mature forest will be a relatively carbon neutral cycle.
note: there were some interesting hints in the literature i scanned about some sequestration by certain bacteria in soil that already had charcoal/char/etc in it, but i'm not sure this is a phenomena that will be repeatable world wide. it might require tropical jungle conditions with a certain level of moisture or some other factors not very transferrable. i.e. the science is still out on this. a small glimmer there from what i've seen so far. i'm always looking for more such hints of hope.

most often i'm amused, but whatever makes you happy.
songbird
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1) Is this some kind of fuzzy idea, or just another brain fart? Are you confusing organic with sustainable? Are there any man made chemicals used in your slash and burn agriculture? If, not, it was organic.

When did the conversation become sustainability? Again, commercial factory agriculture isn't sustainable, because at some point we will run out of fossil fuels (non-sustainable), if we don't die from the heat and H2S first.

Again, judgement without facts. It comes second nature to you. With small populations, hunter-gathering was sustainable. <http://www.environnement.ens.fr/perso/claessen/agriculture/mistake_jared _diamond.pdf> As to other cultures of pre-history, which one used man-made fertilizers, or pesticides, hmmm?

I think you'll find general agreement to that statement.

You know, if you could make a statement instead of wandering off into sophistry, this would be a discussion, instead of theater of the absurd. Since falvonoids exist in all plants (not counting fungi) that we eat, where is the incidence of excess consumption, hmmmm?
While Wikipedia may not be perfect, it is sufficient for a citation. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid>
Flavonoid
Biological roles They also protect plants from attacks by microbes, fungi[3] and insects. (When plants are grown with pesticides, flavonoids are less necessary, and fewer are produced. Parentheses mine)
Potential for biological activity Flavonoids (specifically flavanoids such as the catechins) are "the most common group of polyphenolic compounds in the human diet and are found ubiquitously in plants".[4] Flavonols, the original bioflavonoids such as quercetin, are also found ubiquitously, but in lesser quantities. Both sets of compounds have evidence of health-modulating effects in animals which eat them. The widespread distribution of flavonoids, their variety and their relatively low toxicity compared to other active plant compounds (for instance alkaloids) mean that many animals, including humans, ingest significant quantities in their diet. Resulting from experimental evidence that they may modify allergens, viruses, and carcinogens, flavonoids have potential to be biological "response modifiers", such as anti-allergic, anti-inflammatory,[5] anti-microbial[6] and anti-cancer activities shown from in vitro studies.[7]
Antioxidant activity in vitro Flavonoids (both flavonols and flavanols) are most commonly known for their antioxidant activity in vitro. (I'll let you look up free radicle. Parentheses mine)

In the sense that there is more carbon in garden soil than in impoverished, commercial, factory-farming soil, where there is next to none? Even you should be able to understand that.

How gallant of you.

As compared to a prairie?

I'm glad you read the material I posted, I was thinking it was a complete waste of electrons.

Trust me. You wouldn't be.

I fear I've strained your brain by going to what "MAY" be the next step in our understanding of nutrition, "flavoniods", so let me back up and just direct that ADHA little mind of yours to the citations below, comparing organic and contemporary commercial (factory farmed) produce.
<http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/the-organic-garden/the-case-against-comm ercially-grown-foods.html>
<http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/cm/symposium/organics/delate/
<http://www.rawfoodlife.com/Articles___Research/Organic_vs_commercial_foo d/organic_vs_commercial_food.htm>
<http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089/107555301750164244
<http://www.twnside.org.sg/title2/susagri/susagri018.htm
<http://www.ota.com/organic/benefits/nutrition.html
<http://www.organixentral.co.uk/rutgers.html
Let me add, that this exchange isn't for you, but for others who may read it. The conversation shows your lack of authoritative support by the lack of citations, and the sophistry of your arguments, e.g. referring to earthworms as an invasive species in a discussion about gardening.
Happy trolling.
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Billy wrote: ...

...
ok, i see where the 1 calorie amount comes from, but i see hand waving for the 2 calorie amount. is that detailed some other place?
songbird
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I don't want to seem patronizing, so I'll just give you his bibliography.
CHAPTER 1: THE PLANT: CORN'S CONQUEST In addition to the printed sources below, I learned a great deal about the natural and social history of Zea mays from my conversations with Ricardo Salvador at Iowa State (www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/home.html) and Ignacio Chapela at the University of California at Berkeley. Ignacio introduced me to his colleague Todd Dawson, who not only helped me understand what a C-4 plant is, but generously tested various foods and hair samples for corn content using his department's mass spectrometer.
The two indispensable books on the history of corn are:
Fussell, Betty The Story of Corn (New York: Knopf, 1994). Columbus's quote on corn is on page 17. The statistics on wheat versus corn consumption are on page 215.
Warman, Arturo. Corn & Capitalism: How a Botanical Bastard Grew to Global Dominance. Trans. Nancy L. Westrate (Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press, 2003). Other helpful works touching on the history of corn include:
Anderson, Edgar. Plants, Man and Life (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1952).
Crosby, Alfred W Germs, Seeds & Animals: Studies in Ecological History (Armonk, NY: . M. E. Sharpe, 1994).
. Ecological Imperialism: The Biological Expansion of Europe, 900-1900 (Cam- bridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1986).
Diamond, Jared. Guns, Germs, and Steel (New York: W W Norton, 1997).
Eisenberg, Evan. The Ecology of Eden (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1998). Very good on the coevolutionary relationship of grasses and humankind.
Iltis, Hugh H. "FromTeosinte to Maize: The Catastrophic Sexual Mutation," Science 222, no. 4626 (November 25, 1983).
Mann, Charles C. 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 2005). Excellent on the evolutionary origins of the plant and pre-Columbian maize agriculture.
Nabhan, G. P. Enduring Seeds: Native American Agriculture and Wild Plant Conservation (San Francisco: North Point Press, 1989).
Rifkin, Jeremy. Beyond Beef: The Rise and Fall of the Cattle Culture (New York: Plume, 19 93). The quote from General Sheridan is on page 78.
Sargent, Frederick. Corn Plants: Their Uses and Ways of Life (Boston: Houghton Mifnin,1901). '
Wallace, H. A., and E. N. Bressman. Corn and Corn Growing (New York: JohnWiley &Sons, 1949).
Weatherford, Jack. Indian Givers: How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World (New York: Crown, 1988).
Will, George F., and George E. Hyde. Corn Among the Indians of the Upper Missouri (Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press, 1917). -----
I await your report.
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songbird wrote:

I would be interested to see that too.

I am guessing that in the long term organic horticulture has only a mild effect in storage. If you have 10% organic material in your soil you are sequestering more carbon than if you have 1% but it isn't going to be a big carbon sink. Assuming that you can still feed the numbers required. OTOH if you don't use all the chemferts that require energy to manufacture then you are saving some at that end.
improving soil is

This can only be answered properly by careful numeric modelling but I don't have a reference for it. My guess is that it won't be so valuable. However if combined with other methods such as forest re-planting and organic pasture management we might make some progress. Regarding the latter, I have seen studies that say that pastures (as opposed to crops) can store significant carbon. To do this you need to grass-feed your animals instead of ripping out the pastures to grow corn to feed them in lots.

I think that this would be possible but the big question is what would be the energy cost and financial cost to do it.
Regardless of sequestration there is no mid-term solution unless we stop burning fossil fuel at such a rate. We must decide to do this as a species, the limits of availability will make the decision for us in respect of oil quite soon but there is enough coal left to send earth well into the greenhouse if we keep burning it at an increasing rate. And only one long-term solution: stop population growth.
David
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