Progress report

I transplanted my Granex onions to a larger container this week. They are 2 to 3 inches tall.
Today I started seeds for Green Giant and De Cicco broccoli and Copenhagen Market Early cabbage. Tomorrow I plan to start Ruby Ball Hybrid cabbage, Bonilla shallots, and Salad Red onions. About the middle of the month I will start leaf lettuce, chard, broccoli rabe and beets.
My husband did the first till on the area where I will plant most of the above items. Just about ready to go.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
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wrote:

You are obviously in a warmer area than me. We still have a foot of snow on the ground and Environment Canada is calling for more, along with high winds and wind chill temperature of minus 29 C.
Ross Southern Ontario, Canada. AgCanada Zone 5b Google Earth: 43 17' 26.75" North 80 13' 29.46" West To email, remove the "obvious" from my address.
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When a garden is as infested as you repeatedly said yours was, instant results are not possible.

Perhaps you would benefit from taking a course in gardening. The master gardener course is excellent and is in most states through the Extension Service or Horticulture divisions at State universities. The cost is minimal and you would learn the whole dynamic of gardening, how to build a good garden ecosystem that will improve each year, what harmful things to avoid, and how to apply necessary and safe controls and fertilizers.

To the extent this is true, this is why natural controls are better over the long haul. People managed to farm for thousands of years without Malathion, Sevin, and the myriad of other toxic substances that are harming both the environment and animals including humans. It takes just a bit of finesse, some easily-obtainable knowledge, patience and some time to work with nature instead of against it. Just some reasonable effort has a huge payoff in the long run.

And yet the same people keep dumping ever more dangerous poisons on their plants. It's baffling.

Like I said, your garden was too far gone by the time you tried the Neem Oil and the Organocide. You had already used Malathion, Sevin and heaven knows what else. You did not mention using any preventive measures either. Has your soil been tested and amended? Have you composted? Are your plants getting enough nutrition, water and sun to resist pest attacks? Plants need a good deal more than nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium. Did you mulch? Do you have an environment that is conducive to birds and insects that prey on garden pests? I can't imagine the latter is true since you're using harmful poisons.
As with other things in life, there are rarely quick and dirty solutions. Any decent gardener will tell you that gardening is a great deal more than putting a few seeds in the ground and spraying when the plants fail to thrive.

You've complained at almost every suggestion. I'd call that a rejection.

Dead from your use of Malathion, Sevin and, likely, a host of other poisons you've been using for many years.

Hornswoggle. Your Sevin and Malathion didn't seem to work either but you're not blaming it on them. Could it be because you were fundamentally antagonistic, from the start, to more natural or organic methods?
No method, including organic methods, can work instantaneously in an already compromised, intensely poisoned environment such as yours appears to be. They take time and care as I've already indicated. You want it as easy as waving a spray wand and when that fails, you blame it on the product. That is not gardening, Marie. It is a fantasy.

Is that what you call what you did? Buy a couple of sprays? That's "pure organic"?

Don't be silly. I'm not the one making ridiculous claims. You are. Malathion and Sevin are well known poisons. It's a fact that they are broad spectrum pesticides. Look it up. Reading won't hurt you, I promise. Despite your pleas for help in multiple forums, you've been antagonistic to almost any suggestion. So, if the poisons are the way to go and work so well, then why are you complaining?

Your property, Marie, is not independent of your gardens. They are all part of the same ecosystem. You've had 20 years to at least allow the development of an healthy ecosystem. Based on what you've said in various posts, had you left it alone for twenty years, it would likely have been far better off than it is with whatever you've done to it. You've been rather blunt with me so I'm being equally candid with you.
No one is forcing you to garden organically or use any particular method at all. You asked for help--- complained incessantly in rec.gardens.edible for months--- but you seemed antagonistic to all the suggestions you received. You even lashed out at people who gave you wise advice. You're upset because you bought a couple of so-called organic products and they did not instantaneously resolve your very severe problems. So you blame all your gardening failures on them alone. "Organic" and "natural" are clearly members of your axis of evil.
Your entire scenario is not only illogical. It is preposterous.
My last piece of advice is to stop all the whinging at people who try to help you and give a little more time learning.
Isabella
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot
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wrote:

Sorry to give the impression I expected "instant" results. After almost a month I realized their numbers were increasing, not decreasing.

That information is not only online but as close as my phone - our Ag agent. I also have the old Rodale Book of Organic Gardening. I've been successfully gardening since the late 1950s. You can't seem to grasp that these insects and mites had nothing to stop them. Where were all the beneficials you're convinced were there? No one ever sprayed that garden since it was NEW and laid fallow for 2 years.

Where were the "natural" controls when the first spiders and WFs arrived? This garden had never been sprayed.
People managed to farm for thousands of years without

And famines were common when crop failures occurred. Remember the potato famine in Ireland and the Rice famine in China? Chemical sprays didn't exist in those days. At times insects or viral or bacterial disease became so invasive thousands of acres of crops were wiped out. My grandparents told me about hunger caused by crop failure in Europe in the early part last Century. Where do you get the idea crops remained healthy and the land 'balanced' in the past? There were insects and plant diseases back then as there are now.
It takes

And what would you suggest someone do when they realize their garden is infested with WFs and Spider mites? A garden that was never sprayed with anything? The soil full of organic matter and the plants put out in excellent condition. Just leave them to destroy the crop while you hope a few beneficials happen by? Why was Neem Oil and Pyrethrum recommended?

Yes it is since they have no other choice as they watch their expensive landscaping destroyed by viral, bacterial or fungal diseases. And insect pests destroy one plant after another. It's baffling that nothing works isn't it? Nothing "natural" kills the diseases insect pests spread to landscape and garden plants. Nothing natural devours mealy bugs and spider mites and Japanese beetles.

Like I said, the Neem Oil was tried long before the pests reached such numbers. I guess you missed many of my posts. By the time I realized Neem Oil and Pyrethrum were useless.... it was too late. Like I said, this is a new garden never sprayed with anything before so no beneficials, if they existed in this garden, were ever killed off.
You had already used Malathion, Sevin and

As I said, no sprays were ever used in this garden.
Has your soil been tested and amended? Have you

Like I said, you missed many of my posts.. This has all been covered. Yes they're mulched, and yes there is a lot of organic matter in the soil, but the insects didn't care.
Do you have an environment

What harmful poisons were used in that garden before the the organic crap obviously failed? How many times must I tell you this was a NEW garden that had laid fallow 2 years. No sprays were ever used in it. No neighbors came over and sprayed poison on the compost rotting on the soil for 2 years. No one can get back there past the dogs to spray poisons.

Like I said but you keep missing, I've been successfully gardening since the late 1950s.

What suggestions have I complained about regarding this infestation? Taking out a loan for hundreds of dollars to buy and ship hundreds of pounds of amendments is not possible. How is that a complaint? It's a fact. Do you consider a fact a complaint? We get organic matter for free now that we don't get enough from our own property. Even if I could get a bank loan for soil amendments (which I couldn't pay back anyway) it wont have any effect on this infestation. That garden had at least 5" or more of partly rotted leaves and weeds and kitchen waste tilled in. These same insects and spiders are on the native vegetation in my area were no one ever sprayed anything. You seem obsessed with the notion someone was spraying poisons all over this garden for no reason at all causing all the beneficials to die, but magically leaving the pests alive. Who sprayed the fields next door or the woods behind my house where no one lives? Or the old abandoned farm across the road where I found WFs on some hollyhocks gone wild and spiders on a patch of English ivy near the barn. No one's lived there for over 30 years. Where are the beneficials? I didn't see anything feeding on them. I saw a few lady bugs on some wildflowers that had aphids. That was all.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. Do you know what fallow means? Apparently not. And I notice you refuse to address the fact that organics were used for almost a month FIRST before Malathion was used. You carefully side-step that *FACT* don't you? You don't want it known organics are useless. You want people to think Malathion was used first and killed the plants. How dishonest of you.

Bullpippy.... don't lie. The first products used were Neem Oil and Pyrethrum. I've mentioned this many times but you can't accept that. You have to try and blame Malathion, the third product used. By then the plants were too far gone from the useless Neem and Pyrethrum. Why are you trying to hide the truth?

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. Do you know what fallow means? Apparently not. And I notice you refuse to address the fact that organics were used for almost a month FIRST before Malathion was used. You carefully side-step that *FACT* don't you? You don't want it known organics are useless. You want people to think Malathion was used first and killed the plants. How dishonest of you.
They take time and care as I've already indicated. You

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. Do you know what fallow means?

Is Neem Oil and Pyrethrum organic or not? That's what was used when the infestation started. Is that pure organic or were we supposed to just do nothing as the plants were covered with more and more webs and WF? I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. No sprays had ever been used on the composting leaves and kitchen waste.

I've already told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. No sprays had ever been used on the composting leaves and kitchen waste.
It's a fact that they are

I did look it up and like I told you many times this is a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years. No sprays had ever been used on the earth on composting leaves.
Despite your pleas for help in multiple forums, you've been

"Suggesting" to purchase expensive soil amendments when I'm asking about an insect infestation is absurd. If you go into a store and ask where the shoe dept. is, you don't want a lecture on buying socks and toenail clippers etc. You organic fanatics used a simple question to try and cram your organic ideas down my throat no matter what I posted. A few of you weren't even on topic, nor did you even read what I posted before replying. I didn't ask about soil amendments. I asked about an infestation in progress in a NEW GARDEN that laid fallow for 2 years where no sprays had ever been used on the earth on composting leaves or the plants until they were already infested. And here you foam and froth that this new garden was drenched in poisons for years.

Then blame GOD since the west garden area was all wooded until 4 years ago. I've said this many times already so I know you either reply without reading messages or you pretend ignorance. Because of chiggers and ticks no one went back there. One winter it was cleared off. The following summer it was used as a garden, then laid fallow for 2 years covered in leaves. Can you comprehend what I'm saying? It was in GOD's care. No one went back there.

I asked about an unusual insect infestation, not about soil amendments and long speeches on organic gardening principals which I am well aware of for many years. I took someone's suggestion and used the Neem Oil and Pyrethrum didn't I? You organic fanatics used my questions to get on your soap boxes and push expensive amendments not even related to the ongoing infestation, then have the gall to wonder why I got annoyed? I didn't ask about soil amendments or where to buy and ship them from. The soil back there is already loaded with organic matter. If I wanted info on costly amendments I would have asked for it.
You even lashed out at people who gave you

See, more fanaticism on your part. Is three weeks of using useless products as you watch the pest population explode instantaneous? How long were these organic products supposed to take to show results? 3 months? 6 months? Several plants had already died by the time I called the Ag dept. and brought them plant samples.

So is yours.... someone asks about an ongoing infestation in a new garden on virgin woodland and your foam that they sprayed poison all over that ground. Instead of offing help with the infestation you jump on a soapbox and start pushing organic soil amendments as though spending hundreds of dollars to ship in these amendments will get rid of the pest infestation.

I've been successfully gardening since the late 1950s as I said many times, but you fail to comprehend and accept that......

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In the garden with your unicorn, eating the lilies.

Hornswoggle. I didn't say crops always remained healthy or that everything was always balanced, Marie. You did. You put forth that straw-man, another of your many inventions, in an effort to give your relentless nattering credibility. I simply said people managed to farm for thousands of years without Malathion and Sevin--- a fact you cannot argue.
And with that, I terminate this pointless discussion since anything else I have to say would be in very bad form.
--
"I will show you fear in a handful of dust"
-T.S. Eliot
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wrote:

See! When backed into the corner for a answer you scream and run away..........
Your a frothing foaming know-it-all liar Isabella. Example: You claimed this Co-Op doesn't exist when it's been there for years:
Davidson Farmers Co-Op 3511 Dickerson Pike Nashville, TN 37207 (615) 860-4774
It's not nice to be a decietful liar. Shame on you!
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