Pepper saga.......... Pepper expert anyone?

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I'll second that. Very informative post. Thank you Pat.
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I know what you mean. I seldom had bug/insect problems in my gardens. This is the first wf and sm I've ever seen here. Usually just a few tomato horn worms, a squash bug or two and a couple Japanese beetles... they've never been a problem. Only SBV are here every year.

I have no way to know who tried the products they recommend and who just makes suggestions because someone told them it worked for their brother's sister-in-law's tenant's daughter.... you know what I mean.

After looking at the one garden today I don't think it would matter anymore. The season ends here in Mid October. There's no time left to get a pepper crop. The damage to the plants is too severe. Too many weeks wasted trying things people recommended that didn't work, or barely worked. The smelly Organicide is slowing working, but it's too late now. It will take to long.

I would love to find an organic answer. Very interesting read. Thanks. :^)

I'll look for it locally. Shipping today often costs more than or the same as the product itself. And at this point these plants are hardly worth pouring more money on.

Sorry, must have misunderstood you.

Oh... OK. Gotcha. :^)

Yep, it's got one week for us to see serious improvement. If none, then everything from that garden is being burned, cremated. The ashes will be spread out by the road. We're not using anything from the gardens for compost this year. We found a place to get loads of mulch to compost from the city. It's all shredded tree limbs, bark and leaves. Next year I'll start spraying the plants the day I set them out.

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On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:51:19 -0500, "Marie Dodge"

Do they make dark shadows on your screens at night? Do you have to wear a bandana when you're working in the garden to avoid ingesting bunches of whiteflies with each breath? Do they make pretty abstract patterns on the wall of the house where the morning sun first hits? Cause, that's what it was like when I moved into this house in June of 2001.
Something was clearly out of whack with the food chain for such an explosion of the white fly population. And...<spit!> thrips, they were just not as obvious at first.
So, I started releasing lacewings. The yard was horribly overgrown, so I also cut back or completely down shrubs and weedy trees that looked like they were especially overwhelmed by the whiteflies. I released some ladybugs, too, and the next spring released more lacewings and ladybugs. I talked to my neighbors with varying success about not using broad spectrum pesticides, and made sure they all knew what ladybug and lacewing larva looked like. It took 2 years (and 3 summers) but things finally swung back into better balance. I still get a whitefly outbreak every summer, but I put yellow sticky traps out around the garden for a little extra protection, and let nature take its course elsewhere. Of course, I get all tingly and feel like an Uber Garden Geek when I find ladybug eggs or lacewing larva on a plant that has whitefly. I've been down right orgasmic over the proliferation of squirrel treefrogs this year, too.

Yeah, we were in our fifth year of drought when I moved out here. I'm sure that contributed to the pest explosion.
Penelope
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Hi All,

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What is "washing up liquid" and why would it work when the other organic pesticides failed completely? Do you have any sites where experiments were done proving this washing-up-liquid actually works on WF and SP?
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 19:47:15 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

Soap you use for washing. You make a spray and wash away the aphids and other little buggers. Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap. Kills them dead. Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative would be "Joy" or "Dawn". Whatever liquid dish soap you use for hand washing. If you get a sprayer, you can do it larger scale. Look for the problems, and spray/wash them away.
p.s. Dish soap water also makes an excellent wasp killer. You can spray a nest overhead, with no worries about overspray. They can't fly, drop to the ground instantly, and die in seconds.
http://www.drbronner.com /
stonerfish
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How do YOU wash them away in your gardens with detergents? Do you have a special high power sprayer made for such sprays? How do you kill them when they hit the ground? Step on them all? If you don't kill them once washed off they'll crawl and fly right back onto the plants. How do you manage to use enough pressure to dislodge them and not shread the leaves?
Organic is great. Try Dr. Bronner's peppermint

So you tried this Peppermint soap on both 2-spot-SpiderMites and Whitefly? Don't you remember I was told the other organic products would kill them dead and not one worked as claimed? Since all the other organic products failed, why would you think this one would work?
Or instead of poison, a cheaper alternative

How did you wash them away? How many pounds of pressure did it take to dislodge your spider mites and whitefly? How did you wash off the nymphs without shredding the leaves due to pressure? Since you believe these organic potions work, please explain why all the others failed and how many more will be recommended as long as a person keeps trying them? Just wondering. :) From the website... this sounds like typical snake-oil:
Dr. Bronner’s is Celebrating Our 60th Anniversary! 5 Generations and 150 Years of Soapmaking Excellence Marking the 60th Anniversary of the company, *Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps* is pleased to announce that all classic liquid & bar soaps.........

Why would soap kill them in seconds when it's not a poison? Have you done this yourself with wasps or is this something you read on an organic site selling "magic soaps?"

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Marie Dodge said:

Now you even have me believing you are in this for the trolling.
Lady, soap solution kills insects. Kills them fast. Soap kills earwigs lickety split, even though actual over-the-counter poisons barely slow them down.. You have to be sure to cover them with soap spray. I have personally murdered hosts of earwigs and aphids with soap. And I have accidentally killed a few bees with it. If someone says he's killed wasps with soap spray, I'm inclined to believe him.
The only caution is that soap can also damage plant leaves. And the solutionto *that* is to come back around and rinse the plants off after the pests are killed.
Cornell sez: Insecticidal soap products work by smothering soft bodied pests and disrupting their cuticle layer. In order to be effective, it is necessary to thoroughly coat the pest. After the soap dries on the plant surface, insects and mites will not pick up a lethal dose.
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/resourceguide/mfs/12soap.php
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Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

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Why? Because I ask questions after taking people's advice here and the products recommended no working? Why can't you accept the truth? Why should people keep going out and buying one product after the other when none worked before? Your ignorance is really surprising since the nymphs of these insects cannot be "washed off" like bits of mud or leaf litter.

So non-toxic common soap kills them dead but no one knows this but a few people on Usenet? If soap killed silverleaf-whitefly and 2-spot spider mite dead, it would be well known all over the world by now. Thee two pests alone do millions of dollars worth of damage every year, both in the USA and SA. But no one but a few people here know soap kills them?

To use enough pressure to dislodge the nymphs of WF and SMs will itself damage the leaves, shred them if not knock them off the plants completely. So tell them..... how much soap is used per gallon? At sundown I used a new sprayer and sprayed the plants with 1 TBS per gallon soap and 1 TBS per gallon flour as per one of the people here. All the WF and SP should be dead and gone in the morning according to you. You claim the soap will kill them dead whereas the nothing else did. We'll see.

Soap is cheap. I soaked the plants completely, top and bottom of the all leaves the spray wand reached - right down to the ground.

The link above couldn't be reached (see below). I can't wait to read why farmers are losing millions of dollars a year to WF and SP by refusing to use Soap to kill them. Neem Oil is also supposed to kill them. Maybe I'll learn why they're not using that either but rather take great losses.
Network Error (tcp_error) A communication error occurred: "Operation timed out" The Web Server may be down, too busy, or experiencing other problems preventing it from responding to requests. You may wish to try again at a later time.

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On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:48:58 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

The soap makes the water wetter. It soaks into their skin and they die. I think maybe they breath through their skin and this makes them drown. I don't know what happens, just that the soap kills them, and they are dead. And you don't need special soap for aphids or white flies. Because my friend is worried about chemicals, we used Dr. Bronners on her iris's, and gave them a quick wipe between fingers. Also we misted her mint and rosemary, with now fear of using them in the future. The white fly infestation is now gone. Now, about the wasps. My job is construction. Many times, when working at someones house, I will encounter a wasp nest. Someone showed me the soapy water trick many years ago. Fill a pan or large bowl with soapy water. Fling it on the wasp nest. Done.
stonerfish
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Well I sprayed all three gardens with Soap and flour as suggested here. I had nothng to lose since these products were in my home and are both cheap. We'll see if soap killed them.... in fact I'm taking the flashlight out there now and looking.
OK... the plants were sprayed around 7 PM with 1 TBS each of flour and handsoap (Palmolive) per gallon of water in a brand new sprayer with a larger tip. Both sides of the leaves were sprayed. Sprayed were collards, jewel peppers, chard, tomatoes and a Ichabon eggplant. Only the Chard had spider mites and only a few plants are infested so far. The WF and SMs are still there and are alive. I could see them moving, walking over the residue of soap and flour when disturbed. They will not fly at night. They had 6 hours now to suffocate and die. The flour was supposed to somehow kill them also. The whole garden smells faintly of soap but I guess that's better than the Organicide which smelled like fish and didn't kill/smother them either. I'm just wondering what will be said next.... that it's the wrong brand of flour, the wrong kind of soap, wrong brand of soap and flour, wrong aroma, constancy of soap.....? I'm sure you can see my point. The second garden is now being destroyed by these pests and so far nothing had worked. Not one of you purely Organic people have explained why the Neem Oil, the Phyrethrum and the Organicide didn't do them any harm either. What's left to recommend now? How many more organic options are left?

I can't try it on wasps since we don't have any here at the moment. But since the soap and flour didn't kill the WF and SMs, I would have to be out of my mind to toss it on wasps. You really need to tell people to try it on insects not dangerous to themselves before recommending they toss it on wasps. When it fails to kill the wasps as it did the WF and SMs, and the person is stung, they can go into shock and die.

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On Fri, 29 Aug 2008 01:16:49 -0500, Marie Dodge wrote:

Flour? I don't ever remember suggesting flour. Sounds messy.

Ok, so you have some time and a flashlight. Wash the few plants with mites. Then do it again the next night. I don't know what the flour will do, except make things messy.

I don't know what to tell you. It seems like the bugs are your enemy. In your other post, where you mention birds, it sounds like they are your enemy too. Maybe you should go with astro-turf.

Be afraid, be very afraid.....

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Some wasps are pollinators, aren't they? You kind of have to stay away from certain plants at certain times of the day. Black-eyed peas are a good example. Ours are always full of wasps in the morning. Gosh I hate getting stung by a wasp. It's an awful feeling unlike anything else. I have often accidentally reached for a bumblebee when picking blackberries but at least they start to rumble and buzz as you reach out to touch them. None have yet stung me. They are amazingly soft to the touch... lol. My husband ran over a wasp nest with the tractor and they stung the hell out him. The kind that nests in the ground is rather vicious.
Isabella
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snipped-for-privacy@invalid.invalid says...

Who said soap and flour?
And how did you manage to spray a nozzle clogging soap and flour mixture, anyway?
Soap, has worked for us on the rare occasion we've needed it.
As for wasps and bees... Bees, you leave alone for obvious reasons except when there's a hive in an inconvenient place because bee hives keep growing. Wasps, you leave alone because they're predators and __pollinators__ and most helpful with cabbage worms etc. except when their hive or nesting site is in a very inconvenient place.
...and with wasps, if you're persistent, a jet of water will knock down and destroy most nests and they'll give up and build elsewhere. Yellow jackets underground.
This isn't something I'd recommend, but I've removed wasp nests by just scraping them off or out with my Japanese farmer's knife.
Finally, with wasps, leaving a good sized, dead, nest in place may keep other wasps from building. I left one beautiful, complete, paper wasp nest inside our garden shed and they've not tried to build anything in there in the past couple of years.
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Hi Marie,

It is a liquid soap used for washing dishes in the U, K. It works for me that is all I can say. How it works I do not know. Hope this helps you.
Richard M. Watkin.
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Do you know what chemicals are in your soap there? The soap here in the USA doesn't kill them. I used Palmolive at the recommended dose. After 7 hours the SMs and WF are still there and still alive.

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What a person of your level of resourcefulness needs, Marie, is a grenade launcher, flame thrower and an ample supply of napalm. Or perhaps photon torpedoes launched from the belly of Ferrengi pirate ship. Only cost you 50 quatloos.
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Isabella BS snip.
As of 7 PM tonight the plants sprayed with Palmolive soap and flour are still covered with the mites and whitefly - 24 hours after a thorough drenching. Leaves have slightly oily feel and flour is visible in crevices of leaves. Only difference noticed: The smell of the soap had dissipated.
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Like I said, what a person of your level of resourcefulness needs, Marie, is a grenade launcher, flame thrower and an ample supply of napalm. Even then, it seems unlikely that would work on on such a contaminated, blighted, befouled, soon-to-be designated by the EPA, toxic waste dump like yours.
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