OT but a welcome bit of brightness

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http://www.nrdc.org/oceans/files/rebuilding-fisheries-report.pdf
it's good to see that, yes, we are capable as a country to make changes which benefit the environment and species we feed upon.
still need to keep at it, but the conclusion section is a good point. compared to many areas/countries the USoA is doing better in spite of corporate greed, governmental corruption, etc.
kudoes to the scientists involved and to those who make it work in spite of all the opposition.
songbird
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Seems as if every piece of good news is like a drop of water on a hot rock.
<http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/25/ilex-squid-trawlers-agrentina-f alklands_n_2949087.html?utm_hp_ref=green>
Ilex Squid Overfishing Woes Test Delicate Relationship Between Argentina And The Falklands
. . . hundreds of unlicensed, unregulated fishing vessels that exploit the South Atlantic, pulling out an estimated 300,000 tons of ilex squid a year.
The species, which roams across the maritime boundary between Argentina and the Falkland Islands, is key to a food chain that sustains penguins, seals, birds and whales.
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Billy wrote: ...

yeah, international waters are likely to always be troublesome to manage, but eventually we have to as a whole planet come to grips with sustainable practices.
after all, there are no other alternatives. either we change and adjust or we'll be gone.
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Which choice gives the highest profits for the next quarter?
It's going to be a tough row to hoe. Answers are being found, but implementation is slow to non-existent. We all know that CO2 emissions have to be curtailed, but is seems to be blocked by campaign financing, which allows pipelines to be built to pump even more CO2 into the atmosphere, 390 ppm and rising.
Got about half of my garden beds prepped. Even without digging, it wore me out. Good sweat though ;O)
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In article

Oh, good grief, a couple of the squash are flowering, and it will be nearly a month before they will go in the ground (maybe earlier). These were outside for about a week now, as the night time temps got into the high 30's, and now low 40's. wonder if that means early squash, mmmmmmm.
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Billy wrote: ...

for some state sponsored trawlers on the open seas it's not going to be about profits, but sheer survival. at some point in the future if we don't get a grip on populations and manage the topsoil better.
the book _soil_ by David Montgomery was yesterday's reading list entry and while interesting and containing some points i'd not considered before it was rather gloomy. repeated civilizations collapsing because they mistreated their topsoil.
ironic that Cuba is one of the brightest agricultural spots and that because they were embargoed.

yep, it's going to be an interesting time for the next few hundred years.
i was heartened to see that many people in Michigan voted for a provision to raise renewable requirements for utilities. so it's not like people don't care, but that they still are not a large enough majority to force the changes through. but if each of those people who voted made the change with their electricity provider directly to purchase more green power they could already make the change and not even need a new law to do it. this is an option for people and it already exists.
the counterargument to the pipeline thing is that currently companies are shipping the oil via rail to get around the distribution bottleneck. which isn't very good for things either.
somehow though we gotta get the fossil fuel monkey off our backs or get the technology in place to sequester all the CO2 from burning it plus also set up CO2 sucking plants to reduce the level back to more reasonable levels.
this should already be happening no matter what the laws and governments say. it can be done. there's nothing technically impossible, just gotta do it.

i can still find frozen ground here. the sun was out most of the day and some flowers made progress. maybe by Saturday there will be some blooms.
aren't squash blooms edible? :)
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a fishing trawler at sea for months at a time, only seeking survival. The oceans are the commons, that once again are being appropriated to enrich the few.

You sure you're not a socialist? ;O)

<(Amazon.com product link shortened) 8/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid64575426&sr=1-7&keywordsvid+Montgom ery>
<(Amazon.com product link shortened) 17009/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid64575795&sr=1-1&keywords=Collapse>
politic's way of telling you to start a garden. Fidel also invested in literacy, and health care.

Interesting is the Delphic like, Chinese curse.

major parties, just varying degrees of bad ones.
Extraction of tar sands oil requires vast amounts of fresh water, and more gets polluted from spills into water ways, which is reminiscent of mountain top removal in coal mining, and pond dumping at CAFOs. It's called "privatizing the profits, and socializing the costs".
Anybody who is conscious must note that we just observed "World Water Day". The fulfilment of basic human needs, our environment, socio-economic development and poverty reduction are all heavily dependent on water. We can't live without it, but we pollute the .375 percent of the fresh water that we have access to.

purchase of clean energy by the government.
Since we will soon have 9 billion souls to feed, creating charcoal with solar furnaces for farmlands would help grow crops, and reduce CO2.

started. All disasters are opportunities, don't you just know.

earlier, but then comes your longer Midwest summer days, and warmer nights, and you leave us (me anyway in the dust). I'll be lucky to have tomatoes by Aug.

We just had a day of rain. Today is suppose to be nice with a promise of 75F. Sunday is predicted to bring thunder storms with rain through the week, and then it looks like the good times arrive. I need to do some more clean up, and see what the remaining beds are going to need.Every day, we get a little bit more sun coming over the hill.
"Though an old man, I am but a young gardener." - Thomas Jefferson
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Billy wrote:

wherewithal,
the vast trouble with the unpoliced commons is that it is too easily exploited or even if not directly exploited then indirectly exploitable.
once you get overgrazing as being allowed then the crashes happen. be it the oceans or the village commons.
but my comment is aimed at the future when pressure for harvesting foods from the oceans will be severe and it will become more and more important to police national waters to keep others from ruining what we've been trying to restore.
wouldn't the moral side always be that we cannot limit fishing if people are starving? but that is going to have to be what happens if we want to keep our fisheries sustainable. and then the arguments about what is sustainable and how to err on the side of safety. it gets complicated and hard to explain to a hungry soul...
one point in the book that is made (which i do agree with) is that there will always be hungry people because we have this capacity built in to keep on screwing even if the surrounding countryside is going up in smoke. in fact the countryside going up in smoke sometimes sets off rounds of screwing much the way winter storms in the northlands can set off mini-baby-booms...
but back to international waters and fisheries. we as a world have to get agreements and enforcements in place to deal with rogue fleets and overfishing. otherwise it's just not going to be there later as a food source.

the setting of values is a thing of the mind. once you set the value of something and enough other people accept that setting then the capitalist pigs will follow. as you note below. :)
money and capital after all are figments of the imagination, so if you can get enough people convinced that CO2 sequestration has value then some kind of market forces will be created along with that determination of value.
now though, i think that value needs to be set higher and immediately to get the whole process going.

yep, had it right in my hand too. haha...

i'm going to head into the Everglades for my next book. gotta find a good one on the history and such. though i think in the next few hundred years it's going to be threatened with inundation like much of the other low lying areas around the world.
i've wanted to go back and look at his book on germs and steel, so those will be the next books on the list.

it's easy to be thin in a tropical country if you don't get sucked into the air-conditioner trap.

yes, that was the sense of "interesting" that i was using.

if Obama uses the executive power to force CO2 projects i'll kiss his feet. for some reason though i think he'll come up short like he's buckled on some other issues once faced with the choice.

that is true of any natural resource that isn't ultimately recyclable and sustainable. and even those that are can also be treated in the same manner.
tar sands oil is a mess from what i've seen of it, but i think any fossil fuel, even natural gas is simply piling on to the existing problem so the replacement of coal burning by natural gas, while is is better is not a long term solution. there still needs to be smokestack CO2 regulation and reduction for every industrial process and every farmer too needs to be in on building up soil organic materials and keeping erosion as minimal as possible.

i dunno about you, but there have been hundreds of billions spent over the past few decades to upgrade sewage treatment plants and taking care of combined systems (separating the storm run off from the house sewage). a local town has had a great deal of trouble with that problem, we are hoping they finally got a handle on it as the last major storm we had did not overflow into the river. the river though goes into a rather large wetlands and so nature does clean up the water a great deal in that area before it goes out to Lake Huron.
even with all this spending i agree with you that we need to work on water issues more. from things like restoring wetlands and returning rivers to more natural flooding instead of levees. that flooding restores topsoil in flood plains.
however, as a whole, the soil organic content and CO2 issue will likely require we rethink sewage and waste handling as a whole. some cities recycle a fair bit. others not much at all. so if we can get recycling as a higher priority and then take that organic material turn it into biochar and bury it then we've got many tons of CO2 emissions avoided longer term as those materials would have decayed.
one thing that i don't see mentioned too often is that all this building we do and all these houses with all this wood. that is CO2 sequestration too of a kind. sure houses burn and get destroyed but each house is a CO2 sink for some time. if even a fraction of that wood ultimately gets turned into biochar and buried then that is a step in the right direction.

yes, that is a part of why i've been reading up on biochar and cleaner stove technologies as many people around the world still use wood and charcoal as stove fuel. if we can get cleaner burning and more efficient stoves into people's daily use then that gradually becomes a way to take some CO2 out of the air. as the stoves are designed to use marginal fuels anyways that can take some pressure off woodlands too.
solar furnaces are not really needed as biochar creates it's own fuel as it is being made. it can be a source of fuel for cars/trucks/industry too. my ideal for a farm combine would be that it could use a portion of what it harvests (stems, stalks, cobs) to create the fuel on the fly and leave a trail of buried biochar behind it as it goes. add to it a chopper, disk, and cover crop planting on the same pass and you've almost got a sustainable industrial agriculture.

i would be surprised if any major company doesn't have some sort of CO2 projects in the works. they just need to be pushed along now to do it. and the heck with how much it costs. when you look at how many trillion dollars of infrastructure will be lost to rising sea levels and bigger storms it's just not a matter of arguing costs. and a lot of good jobs for engineers, foresters, and general laborers too.

our tomatoes won't be ripening until mid-August if we have anything like a normal season. we don't start too early with tomatoes. the end of May is when the warm weather tender plants get set out and planted.
first crocuses flowered today. we walked around the yard/gardens today and checked out the winter damage. the deer did trim some of the cedar trees the past few weeks and some bunny damage too -- nothing extensive enough i'll worry about.
rhubarb and strawberries still in hiding. i'm anxious to see how the transplanted rhubarb came through and if the oldest strawberry patch will produce well after being rearranged a bit last fall. i needed to thin out the june-bearing plants and spread out the ever-bearing plants...

lol! that's about what i say when people tell me i should be selling the wormies.

hope the weekend is grand. i'm always glad to hear of rains out that ways as it does take some pressure off the water supplies and helps the groundwater and crops.
here we are also supposed to see some rain Sunday, but i don't believe it until i see it. the ground is still soggy enough that rain isn't needed, but it will likely help green everything up more quickly.

:)
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Skoal!
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Billy wrote: ...

songbird (50+2days old... just a sprout according to some elders i hang with
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Congratulations.
<
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHRMX9Brq0s

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Billy wrote:

just glad to be here. :)
back then, being born premature wasn't as treatable as it is now.
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So, you've always been precocious?
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Billy wrote:

more likely impatient. "Let me out!"
*plop*
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Sorry, if I seemed flippant yesterday with my "skoal!" remark. It was late, and I wasn't ready to make a coherent response to your post.

Similar to what was the guy thinking, when he cut down the last tree on Easter Island? I'd like to think that there was some shadow of a doubt in the back of his skull as he followed his belief of "the true, the good, and the beautiful". In any event, the act was the culmination of their environmental apocalypse, terminating any hope of a recovery.
Everybody knows what has to be done to save the oceans, and feed the hungry, but it will never happen in a Randian "free market", driven by maximum profit. We are told that a government must live within its budget, but who has a "free market" household, where the family members try to extract the maximum profits from each other?
The oceans need to be cleaned up. Mono cultures need to be curtailed in order to feed more. Interplanting leads to higher yields. Real farming needs to be renacted, instead of chemical farming that pollutes drinking water and the the oceans, and leads to soil erosion, requiring more chemicals to maintain yields.
The government could start a large orchard of chestnuts to introduce the ground nut as a replacement for wheat, and/or rice flour. Terra preta should be encouraged to invigorate soils, and sequester CO2. The chemically induced glut of cereal carbohydrate has mad us sick as a society. We really need to increase fruits, and vegetables in our diets. With that in mind financial barriers to education should be dropped, and agriculture, and cooking should become part of any primary, or secondary curriculum.

I would have expected you to be more of a romantic than that. A good orgasm can put that tap back into your toes, but that too comes to a halt, when people get hungry. A friend was in Berlin when the city fell to the Allies in WWII, and she found the romantic sub-plot to the movie "Enemy at the Gates" to be incomprehensible. Her reaction was that no one is romantic, when they are hungry, no one.
Passion requires ambiance, good food, good wine, or at least a storage closet, and then it's that ol' "bim-batta-boom", so to speak.
A better target of your wrath may be where all those people came from, chemical nitrogen that produced abundant crops, and ad campaigns to get us to eat "Ding Dongs", and "Ho-Hos". The calories provided by the U.S. food supply increased from 3,200 per capita in 1970 to 3,900 in the late 1990s, an increase of 700 per day. We eat today for the same reasons we go to war, "public relations" (re: propaganda) as practiced by Edward Bernays, "manufactured consent" as Walter Lippman called it.

matter, to stop drug smuggling. Segments of both groups benefit from these practices.

Then you are going to have to shovel against the tide of "denier" money from the Koch brothers, Exxon, and the rest of the usual suspects. <http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-responsibility/the-8-dirtiest-tricks -played-by-foes-of-clean-energy-reform.html>

United States: 1492 to Present" by Howard Zinn to read. <(Amazon.com product link shortened) 528427/ref=sr_1_2_title_2_har?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid64666459&sr=1-2&keywo rds=People%27s+History+of+the+United+States> As usual, it is also available from your local library, but you would really have to apply yourself to read all 700+ pages in the time allotted by the library. It was published in 2003, and the library copies still have 2 holds on it.

If you like mysteries, you might look for Zoe Ferraris. She has 3 books out. They are also like travelogs to the Arab world, for better or worse.

Just think how much the world would love us if we had spent $3 trillion on water treatment in developing nations, rather than on vanity wars that only enriched war profiteers.

regions. If we want to bury CO2, some could be compressed and stored underground. Increasing the fertility of the soils seems like a better choice to me.

The new CO2 being introduced into the atmosphere is from fossil fuels. These are sources that were already sequestered, until we un-sequestered them. We shouldn't get too involved in the normal CO2 --> cellulose by photosynthesis --> CO2 by decomposers.

cellulose to charcoal.

Good point.

Stupice-55 days, Juliets-60 days, Glacier-65 days, Koralik-70 days, Blondkopfchen-75 days, Marmande-80 days, Stripped German-90 days, Brandywine Sudduth's-90 days. Mostly one of each, but maybe 2 Stupice, and 2 Stripped Germans.

job of dropping the pH on them (Spread sulfur on ground, and then covered it with newsprint, and alfalfa, as is my wont.)

Seems like I've known Tom since he was a young whipper-snapper ;OP

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Billy wrote:

no apology needed, but it's ok anyways. i do understand that with longer posts/conversations it might be a while or never for responses.
usenet is still my favorite medium for many reasons. one is that i can sit on a reply for a while and ponder or rewrite a few times.
[for those who want to just get to the gardening stuff at the end, search for the word HERE :) ]

it may have been a storm, pests or animals which took it out. what i don't quite understand is why they cannot replant now, but i haven't looked to see what is happening there either so perhaps they have started some projects to rebuild the topsoil...
one thing that seems to be ignored for topsoil remediation and reversing erosion is dredging and putting it back where it came from. sure it is work, but we are not short of people needing jobs and if the situation is so bad that we need every square foot of soil to be producing food or carbon sources to trap CO2 then the projects become more important.
ok, yes, contamination and poisons are a problem with much sediment, but that too should be a priority to deal with. if you are using sediments for topsoil and fill as a base for CO2 sequestration then there isn't quite the problem from poisons as compared to if you are using it as a base for a garden or animal fodder. sunshine and time can do a lot to break down a lot of poisons, and bacteria and fungi can do a lot more. so i'm not really discouraged as some might be.

some families are worse, as instead of trying they actually force extraction.
i think you are stuck in the idea that only for-profit corporations exist as active entities in the world. there are non-profit, individual and governmental entities which can make a difference. i see a lot of differences being made from these other entities, but i also see a lot of difference happening in the for-profit companies and individuals.

all agreed with.

not sure if chestnut flour can replace flour in baking, but i don't object to reforestation and sustainable agriculture.

in some areas it is fine, but it is not a universal answer. remember that albedo plays a role in climate. if we covered the earth with dark materials soaking up the sun's radiation we'd bake. so it cannot be used in areas that are left bare for long periods of time. once an area is put into perennial or permaculture then it's a great thing to have.

not just carbohydrates but also animal protein could be reduced. the other aspect is that carbohydrates are much better if they are complex and not so refined.
the past 40 years have really been a mess when it comes to diet and nutrition recommendations from the scientists. it's not that they've intentionally gone wrong, they just didn't know... the longer term view that i like to keep in mind is to "eat real foods" i.e. those that don't have a long list of ingredients on the package.
which reminds me to yell about all the stupid stickers on fruits and vegetables now. like i want more plastic on my food, yeesh.

i think we are in a period of transition when it comes to education. in the longer term i think much of what currently exists as formal schools will be removed and more people will self-learn as needed. much of what i was forced to learn in college was wasted time and money.

oh sure, beyond a point hunger is going to shut down reproduction as starvation shuts down menstruation when it is that severe. i don't know of any place in the first world that has suffered such starvation outside of periods of war. do you?
and i don't discount the benefits of a good sex life. just that we need to make sure in lands that are marginally able to support people that they don't keep having more children than the land can support.

unfortunately in many poor areas it's not a matter of passion but of rape, failed birth control, ignorance, societal breakdown or ...

i have a book called _Fat Chance_ on request, but it will be a while yet before i get to reading it. sounds pretty interesting and likely speaks of a lot of these things.
but think of this, without abortion being an option in the USoA how many more million people there would be. i think someone said about 30 million abortions.
so it's not just about that much food being available, but the lack of effective birth control or the lack of women to even control their lives in many cultures. really when you look at much of the radical fundamentalists what they most hate about western society is the changes it brings to how women are treated.

the drug issue is much wider than i want to tackle in this post, but much of the current policy towards illegal drug use i consider to be a waste of money (along with the prisons, wasted police efforts, etc).

i'm off-line at the moment to take a look at that, but i'm sure it's going to be a fun read.
i know that big oil isn't going down without a fight. they have a huge interest in keeping the status quo. they are however going to have to change. we simply cannot afford not to change.

we've always got some kind of riff on forgetfullness going on here even if both of us are still mostly here (haha), much earthy humor gets flung about too.
yet i make no pretense about being able to remember everything. in fact i try to pack my head so full of stuff as often as possible that it might come leaking out my ears. as of yet, only potatoes and carrots seem to grow there. i must be reading them wrong. the directions on the shredder...

i've read close to 50,000 pages the past few months and that doesn't count the on-line blogs, corporate annual reports, usenet, e-mails, news articles, news papers, etc.
a good read of 700 pages is usually one or two days. i'll put it on the list to pick up eventually, but i suspect much of it i have read before in one form or another.
right now i'm trying to work through all the references in books that i've read recently that strike me as interesting.
the really sad thing is that many links given in printed material no longer work even only a few years past when the book was published. stuff gets moved around on web-sites or the person leaves the university and their docs are gone, etc.

i have read plenty of those the past few years. i'll add her name to the list too for a more quiet time next winter. i'm trying now to get back to more serious reading.
...snip... ...yes, i did actually finally trim something...

if we did it making sewage and water treatment plants as they are currently done then i'd consider that a fairly bad use of the money also.
we really need to stop using water as the means of moving human (and animal wastes) around. it's stupid. we have all these chemicals going into the water that have strange effects and it is so embedded into everyone's habits that they just dump stuff and "it goes away and gets dealt with by someone else" that it makes me sick. and more and more it just might be really making others sick too.
it is that kind of mentality that needs to be changed. we have to think of entire waste streams. that thinking doesn't happen if someone gets a free pass to dump (be it CO2, pig poop or even plant stalks).

spread on the surface isn't always the right answer. agricultural use in areas not already dark soil types that would decrease albedo. which for a warm planet is likely not a good thing. for areas of permiculture or perennial agriculture where the soil is not exposed to the sun directly then it could be spread without too much bad effect.
i keep seeing studies mentioned of how much carbon the soil can hold. these studies are blatantly wrong. they are assuming that the carbon is only mixed into the top layers and left to rot. what they do not measure is how much carbon can be stored in trenches down deeper. so they miss the fact that the soil can hold many times the carbon they state. CO2 pumped under ground is not a real solution. you think FL would last very long if they pump CO2 into the ground there? limestone and carbonic acid... sink hole heaven...

if we have excess CO2 going into the air then we have to remove it no matter how that removal gets done.
we've already gone over limits we should not have so we must now remove extra CO2 each year not just limit what we've already put into the atmosphere.
that we can do it via trees and biochar use is only one way, but we'll likely need other methods too for drawing down the extra CO2 already up there.
we have to do this. the changes going on right now are already shifting the CO2 levels just by feedback (thawing the permafrost). so not only we have to start removing extra we also have to remove the extra that is being caused by the feedback going on.
it's not something that gets done by shutting down extra CO2 production alone. not now. we've already tipped the scale and the slide is starting. to stop the slide we gotta put some mojo into it.

suppose the gases given off during making biochar are combustable or even yet another greenhouse gas? last i knew wood gives off fuel enough to power a car.

cite for what aspect? that wood contains compounds which when released by biochar can fuel a vehicle? that's already a well known thing. Mother Earth News had an article a few issues ago on a wood fuel driven truck. wood gas could have been the gas we used if cheap oil hadn't been found.
the combine process would be fun to work on. but like i've said up above, biochar is an albedo killer.

i think they are points to raise when talking to governmental officials. especially the points about how much it will cost to keep FL, Washington DC, LA and many other cities above flood stage or protected by levees. Hurricane Sandy shook some branches, but we gotta keep on shaking the tree or they'll think that they can go back to doing nothing.
when you consider the feedback from expanding water as it warms and how we've already primed the pump to increase water temperatures (less ice at the north pole for longer periods of time, melting permafrost, etc.). well i just don't see how anyone in government today can keep a straight face and say we don't have a huge infrastructure budget coming up already and that's just if we stop what we've done now. that doesn't even get to the point of the fact that we're still making it worse! arg!
...HERE...

that's a lot of tomatoes!
which do you like the best or the least? do you put them up or freeze them?

glad to be of service. :)

are they flowering or past flowering?
that may not work quickly, but it should make a difference longer term. to change things quickly is likely to cause a bit of shock to a plant anyways. so i'd prefer a more gradual method. how much did you put down?
...

now you're making me think of Grandpa on _the Munsters_ or Uncle Fester of the Addams family...
songbird
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If you're still on dial-up, you'll just have to wait and let this 8 minute and 39 sec fragment (V) of "A Farm for the Future" load on your hard drive. At about 2 min. 20 sec. they start going on about replacing grains with nuts. <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
Ez5ViYKYA>
It is really, a very good series (five parts).
If that's no good for you, then we'll just have to swap email addresses, and I'll mail it to you.
It's time for my beauty sleep. I shall return.
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Billy wrote:

yes, i'm still on dial-up, yet i bookmark things for downloading if they are worth it.
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No, they used the trees as rollers, to move massive carved, stone heads from quarries to the coast, where they would be placed looking out to sea.
The island was deforested but a few trees survived. When Europeans finally arrived they noticed some trees that were about some 10' tall.
Jarod Diamond does an analysis in his book, "Downfall" on page 181 for the reasons of the lack of fertility of Easter Island's soil (low rain fall, cooler climate than in other parts of Polynesian, lack of micronutrients that come from volcanic ash, and continental dust). Once cut, Easter Island's forest wasn't coming back anytime soon.
Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed: Revised Edition by Jared Diamond <(Amazon.com product link shortened) 17009/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid64928666&sr=1-1&keywords=Collapse> (At a library near you.)

No need to disturb the buried poisons. Top soil can be regenerated. Joel Salatin is doing it at the rate of 1"/year. <http://www.acresusa.com/magazines/archives/0104saveworld.htm

You're going to have to explain that to me, unless you mean parents that force their kids into prostitution.

Would you care to share the sunshine? Who, what, when, and where?

Again, "A Farm for a Future", [a BBC documentary on the precient global farming and food crisis, filmed in the UK. Featuring Martin Crawford (Agroforestry Research Trust), Fordhall Farm, Richard Heinberg and others. Topics covered are the influence of oil on the food production, peak-oil, food security, carbon emissions, sustainability and permaculture.] is very worthwhile. It comes in 5 parts. Parts 1 & 2 set up the problem, and parts 3 - 5 offer solutions.
Again the part on perennial nuts replacing annual grains is found in part V at about 2:20 minutes. <
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
Ez5ViYKYA>

could Joel Salatin do with charcoal in his soil?

You can only eat so much. The more fiber that goes into your diet, the less carbs, and fat go in.

That's what Michael Pollan says.

If primary, and secondary schools would teach critical thinking, instead of the rote memorization that is "No Child's Behind Left", they would be a better place. Present provocative ideas to them, but then let them study what they want. Even planning a business model for gramming out an oz. of hash, and its distribution (worst case scenerio) will lead to the realization that there is 28.35g/oz. The metric system will lead to history, agriculture, music, and science. History, music, and science will lead to the rest of the studies of mankind. I'm not suggesting that everybody should start their own cartel, just that all roads lead up the mountain. The same could be said for a kid who wants to design clothes. It's all good. You will still need a teacher to make suggestions, and critics. If they decide that they want to be doctors or engineers, they will have the research skills to seem them through the classes, and tests required for a license in those professions.

I was responding to your statement, "we have this capacity built in to keep on screwing even if the surrounding countryside is going up in smoke." Procreation is difficult when you are hungry, and expecting the roof to fall in at any minute.

Traditionally, where subsistence farming has been a way of life, children are the family's work force, and often children die from disease, so you create replacements.

abortion, BUT that is the woman's call. If a person can't control their own body, what are they allowed to control? If the wacko Christian right really want to get into it, why don't they try to save all the non-menstrual eggs left in the ovaries, and match them up with all the single semen that they can find? At the least, they could try to set up a support system for poor mothers, and their off spring. As it is, the people who condemn abortion are the same who will call for capital punishment. I wish they'd make up their minds. Is life sacred, or not?

<http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20130331/MCT/130329423/1070/OPINION 04?Title=Power-to-change-A-few-surprising-facts-found-along-the-road-to-r enewable-energy&tc=ar> and <http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-11-09/fossil-fuels-got-more-aid-than - clean-energy-iea.html> interesting. <
but no more. Now we learn more and more about less and less. Information overload, I think. People can't keep track of everything they need to know. There isn't enough time. So we end up with politicians who say, who do you believe, your President, or your own lying eyes?

I try to save what I think is really important, either on my hard drive, or in the books in my study.

A fat lot of good that'll do ;O)

The charcoal needs to be where the roots are, and plowing the soil isn't good for it. The charcoal will be covered by the crops, and the non-harvested part of the crop would cover the charcoal after that. If you want to increase the albedo, we could all paint our roofs white.

effectively takes it out of the carbon cycle, and makes agricultural land more fertile.

personally, I don't like it. Charcoal is so much more simple.

How much cellulose would you have to char to heat yourself during winter with H2? I just think that if we can seriously cut the amount of CO2 that we're putting into the atmosphere, and encourage reforestation, and the production of charcoal, we have a chance of turning this barge around. Otherwise, when the methane hydrate that lines the Atlantic seashore goes of goes off, the tide will roll in to Raliegh, N.C., and Harrisburg, PA. Of course this will aversely affect the profits of some major corporations, but so will having New York go under water.

More food come from interplanting.

Wheat may be dry when it is harvested, but I can't think of any other crop that is. I bury my charcoal under mulch.

than CO2 is. The scary part is the water vapor, which also traps heat, but also drives storms like Sandy, and Katrina when it releases heat when it shifts from vapor to liquid.

containers. If I was going to put them up I would be planting romas, or San Marzanos. Between salads, sandwiches, and gazpacho there won't be any left over, especially now that I know that I can use green tomatoes in making salsa verde for enchiladas.

Oh, and thanks again. I gotta tie a string on my finger or something.

They are just flowering.
Next time I think I'll use my dibble, and pour the sulfur into the holes.

Addams Family is probably close to the truth.
Anyway, I woke up this morning with my brown colored glasses on, and I though I'd give you my view of ocean health.
The World Without Us by Alan Weisman <(Amazon.com product link shortened) _1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid74206221&sr=1-1> (Available at a library near you.)
p 152 - 59 There is a Texas-sized span of ocean between Long Beach, California, and Honolulu, sometimes known as the horse latitudes. It is rarely plied by sailors because of a perennial, slowly rotating high-pressure vortex of hot equatorial air that inhales wind and never gives it back. Beneath it, the water describes lazy, clockwise whorls toward a depression at the center.
Its correct name is the North Pacific Subtropical Gyre, though oceanographers have another label for it: the Great Pacific Garbage Patch where nearly everything that blows into the water from half the Pacific Rim eventually ends up, spiraling slowly toward a widening horror of industrial excretion. Covered with floating refuse, it is a fright of cups, bottle caps, tangles of fish netting and monofilament line, bits of polystyrene packaging, six-pack rings, spent balloons, filmy scraps of sandwich wrap, and limp plastic bags that defied counting.
The world's merchant fleet alone shamelessly tossing around 639,000 plastic containers every day. But that amounts to mere polymer crumbs in the ocean compared to what was pouring from the shore.
The real reason that the world's landfills aren't overflowing with plastic, he found, was because most of it ends up in an Ocean-Fill. Eighty percent of mid-ocean flotsam in the North Pacific gyre, was originally discarded on land.
There is a half a pound of debris on the surface for every 100 square meters in the 1,000-mile crossing of the gyre some 3 million tons of plastic. That's more plastic by weight than plankton on the ocean's surface, six times as much.
In India alone, 5,000 processing plants were producing plastic bags. Kenya was churning out 4,000 tons of bags a month, with no potential for recycling.
As for the little pellets known as nurdles, 5.5 quadrillionabout 250 billion poundswere manufactured annually. They are found everywhere. These plastic resin bits can be seen trapped inside the transparent bodies of jellyfish and salps, the ocean's most prolific and widely distributed filter-feeders.
All this plastic had appeared in barely more than 50 years. Would its chemical constituents or additivesfor instance, colorants such as metallic copperconcentrate as they ascended the food chain, and alter evolution?
Tokyo University geochemist Hideshige Takada reported that in the sea, nurdles and other plastic fragments acted both as magnets and as sponges for resilient poisons like DDT and PCBs.
The use of aggressively toxic polychlorinated biphenylsPCBsto make plastics more pliable had been banned since 1970; among other hazards, PCBs were known to promote hormonal havoc such as hermaphroditic fish and polar bears. Like time-release capsules, pre-1970 plastic flotsam will gradually leak PCBs into the ocean for centuries. But, as Takada also discovered, free-floating toxins from all kinds of sourcescopy paper, automobile grease, coolant fluids, old fluorescent tubes, and infamous discharges by General Electric and Monsanto plants directly into streams and riversreadily stick to the surfaces of free-floating plastic.
The gyrating Pacific dump is 10 million square milesnearly the size of Africa, and it wasn't the only one: the planet has six other major tropical oceanic gyres, all of them swirling with ugly debris.
Everyone has seen polyethylene and other plastics turn yellow and brittle and start to flake in sunlight. Often, plastics are treated with additives to make them more UV-resistant; other additives can make them more UV-sensitive.
There are two problems. For one, plastic takes much longer to photodegrade in water. The other hitch is that even though a ghost fishnet made from photodegradable plastic might disintegrate before it drowns any dolphins, its chemical nature will not change for hundreds, perhaps thousands of years.
Polyethylene is not biodegraded in any practical time scale. There is no mechanism in the marine environment to biodegrade that long a molecule." Even if photodegradable nets helped marine mammals live, their powdery residue remains in the sea, where the filter feeders will find it.
G'day
--
Remember Rachel Corrie
<http://www.rachelcorrie.org/
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Billy wrote:

...
...profits, eating, survival... ...Easter Island...

sure, but that doesn't mean it won't recover if replanted and the animals are kept from destroying the seedlings. like many things it's a matter of will.
...

i've read most of what he's published.
he is not building topsoil, he amends it heavily with organic materials that he brings in by the truckload. they get run through the cow barn, the pigs, chickens, before they get scattered on the fields.
i don't think he's much wrong in what he does, but some aspects are not sustainable in the sense that he is using inputs from other areas.
i still give him high marks for what he does compared to many farmers. he at least does understand the importance of topsoil.
he loses marks in that he could be using organic corn for his meat chickens (he complained that his source had too much chaff/cob in it, well duh, get a different supplier or grow your own).
his cows are fed from hay grown on his land, he could change to more bison as the grazing animals and not have to harvest hay or have barns.

forced labor on farms and, yes, prostitution.

what part do you need expanded? non-profit, for-profit or government?

i was able to grab the smallest format for them (6Mb vs 62Mb) and watched them a bit ago.
some interesting parts in there worth watching. being a gardener i like the whole system approach of permaculture.

sequester some percentage of carbon for a longer period than the current method he's using. probably also increase some of the nutrient cycling because of the higher bacterial count in the soil. depending upon how he gets the carbon source would make me rate it better or worse...

only one of the many positive aspects of eating well.

yeah, plus he gets points for feral pig harvesting. :)

i'm not talking about commodifying, i'm talking about self-teaching using freely available materials. commodities cost something and are easily exchanged. knowledge doesn't cost anything, but does take some time to learn.
the community for many people these days is not local but virtual and distributed. much like this medium of usenet. unfortunately or fortunately virtual community still isn't enough for most people.

i don't think we disagree about a lot of this, but education reform is a side tangent i'll leave alone...

yeah, but for some reason there seems to be no shortage of children born in war torn countries full of starving and displaced people.

yes, i know the normal explanations for why population goes the way it does, but it isn't the whole story. which is why i talk about birth control choices, women's rights, fundamentalism and governmental stability.

i'm not, i'm stating facts that are well known. when it comes down to the final equation where each calorie is critical does it matter who eats the one that tips the balance for another person in another place to starve? you may never actually be able to point to any one situation in that fine a detail, but i think you understand that the carrying capacity is a hard limit that once passed is going to take it's due one way or another.

yep. as exploitive omnivores we are just too capable and we are also making the mistake of making plants too capable. if i were a farmer who was into breeding corn i would be breeding for a sustainable corn yeild within the natural soil rate of recovery and not trying to breed a more productive sucker of nutrients from the soil as seems to be the direction of so many others.
the feedback mechanisms outside of human behavior we have to control the population are the accumulation of poisons (making reproduction less likely), environmental degradation making offspring less likely to survive and general catastrophes (volcanism, weather, comet strike, sun getting weaker or going nova), probably others i can't think of at the moment too, but those seem to be the biggies.

this is all a far tangent, but yes, i think that for many they would prefer any situation than having to get an abortion. for the rest of it i mostly agree.
...

the problem with reality is that it exists no matter what we might desire from wishful thinking. deniers to climate warming and CO2 sequestration being important are eventually going to come around or die off. there will be, in time, enough people who will act differently that it will no longer matter what the minority deniers do. like scientific theories, in time the people who are unable to adapt will be replaced and the world will continue.
just that the short term can get rather messy.
...

unfortunately, these are links in books to on-line resources that are gone stale or vanished by the time i get the book. as time goes on i see it getting even worse.
how can i honestly evaluate an argument or a theory and results of experiments if the data is gone? the web just isn't a scholarly medium as much as it should or could be.
...

*snickers*
...rant trimmed a bit :) ...

to improve things a fair bit would be to start finding the supports in place which make such thinking "normal" and starting to challenge that system and get reforms in place.
unfortunately i think some of it (maybe even a fairly large portion) is based in religious ideas and practices. so it is a major challenge. we no longer have to "go forth, be fruitful and multiply and subdue the earth" that's already been done, we need to put out a revision of that bit and people get pissed when you talk about revising "The Word".
...

around here the non-harvested part is not enough to cover the soil, it's stubble for the most part. this is where i do like some other source of production than annual crops. perennial forms of the same crops would be an interesting change. in some ways i do that already via the alfalfa and birdsfoot trefoil green manure and forage crop, but it's not quite the same as a blueberry bush or a beet tree. i'm very interested in what might eventually happen with genetic tinkering, but we're a long ways from that tinkering being really systemically smart. i'd love to do a Rip Van Winkle for about 500 years...

roads should be made from lighter materials too especially in southern climates...

compost is processed organic materials, in some areas it would sequester a lot of CO2 quickly if any of them were buried without any composting step at all. like around here where the water table is fairly high. burying materials here would be very similar to how peat is formed, just stack it up down under the ground where not much air or critters get to it and it will stay put for a long time. i have dug down and found trees buried here only a few feet down. they've been there for quite a long time as this is old agricultural land (cleared in the late 1800s) -- those trees have been buried close to two hundred years.
charcoal is one way of taking carbon out of the cycle, i do agree with that, but the added steps of processing is not needed in some locations -- let's take advantage of those locations and get a larger percentage of the material sequestered than would happen if turned into charcoal. the volatile compounds trapped in the wood are better left in there if we don't need them for any other process.

agreed. for some locations it's an ok stop-gap measure, but it's not sustainable IMO.
...

yea, i know, i just gotta roll with it sometimes. :) like a preacher on a street corner...

no, it starts as celluose when harvested and as it is harvested it gets heated up by what is already burning (or a starter fuel like wood taken from a wood lot). so that forms the base for the process, the celluose is heated and gives off wood gas (which is burned immediately as a fuel to the engine) and the result dropped out the back is the ashes from some burning, the charcoal from the wood gas process and a percentage of unburned organic materials which keep the soil critters in some alternate food sources. converting it all to charcoal removes the cover and structure that the soil needs and the fungi need the cellulose sources too.
i'm not sure how large such a thing could be or how it would all work, but for a sustainable system of harvesting that doesn't need oil it could be an alternative. or even in combination with wood as a fuel. as someone who likes steam engines and trains i just kinda love the idea of a tractor that actually takes some fuel right from the plant it is harvesting so that it doesn't need to be refueled at all or as often.

no, that's a waste as the heat directly from burning the cellulose would be what you want. not a loss from another layer of processing. also the gas given off and condensed if using the cellulose to produce both heat and charcoal can be stored and used just like gasoline. no need to turn anything into H2.

yeah, the hydrates and the methane from thawing arctic tundra and permafrost are also feedback additions that we have to worry about and counter. add more decomposition of carbon compounds in northern soils as they warm...
there is a possibility that the northern areas will grow more trees as a result so the feedback cycle might be very interesting. i still think we need to reduce CO2 below what we are adding so the oceans can recover and increase the pH. corals and shells are important parts of building shoreline erosion breaks.

it could be a mix of planted species, but the result is still the same. we get a portion of buried charcoal from each pass of the harvester/planter and that adds up over time to a significant amount of sequestered CO2. if you have to spread something on the soil wouldn't it be best if it were done by using fuel derived right there instead of from fuel transported in?
if we can go perennial plants for cereal grain production (corn, wheat, rice) and also perennial legumes (i ain't giving up my beans bucko :) ) for adding some nitrogen that still does not get charcoal into the ground. there would still have to be some method of harvesting and spreading the charcoal and it makes the most sense to me if it were to happen as a part of the same process be it from burning the fields once in a while (bad idea as all that energy is then wasted where it could otherwise be used as a food source or a fuel -- not counting the air pollution aspect).

no, i'm going to use cellulose to create more heat, wood gases (wood alcohols, etc.), charcoal and probably some ashes too along with some of the harvested organic material also going back onto the surface. a mixed output system driven by a mixed input system.
it has to be buried deeply enough to smother it. otherwise you'll lose even more of it to further burning. quenching with water -- water too heavy. pipe the exhaust into the trench with the charcoal so that it helps smother the charcoal, but also the soil will trap some of that exhaust.

corn, rice, soybeans are usually harvested when the seeds are firm enough (dry enough) to not be damaged by harvesting and further processing. i'm pretty sure all the plants are dry enough to burn, the dust flies during harvesting around here. if the harvest is too wet there is a problem with potential rot so that is an aspect of harvesting that is watched pretty carefully. i do know that loads are tested before they are put into the grain elevator for moisture content.
sometimes there is a wet period during the harvest where the corn has to be dried further but this is to prevent troubles with rotting in the crop, not with how well the stalks and cobs might burn. might actually work out that the waste heat from the making of the charcoal that it could be used to partially dry the corn if needed too.
once in a while it is too wet too often and a crop is lost due to spoilage in the field. that can just be left until it gets freeze dried and can then be run through a charcoal machine in the spring during planting. for warmer and wetter climates it could all be turned under or left fallow to collapse naturally. a loss of a crop and a loss of a chance to sequester some carbon but not likely to be a regular happening because if it was then they'd be growing something else anyways...
consider for a longer term project where fast growing trees could be planted, then after a few years (seven or less for some poplars i've seen grow here) they could be chopped and left to dry and then chipped and burned on the fly and the charcoal buried at the same time. no crop needed to harvest but there might be a wood gas surplus that could be stored and then used later as fuel. not sure about that though as wood chipping might need a lot more power than dragging a single blade through the soil and spinning some blades and a fan.
...infrastructure costs from rising sea-levels...

yeah. Sandy was a wakeup call, but i think the government is still hitting the snooze button and likely will continue until we replace the alarm clock with a rabid porcupine dressed in oil as a disguise.

*le sigh*
the larger and more long term point is that i really think that no matter what happens short term it will get dealt with one way or another. either Momma Earth will take us out or we'll learn to live within what we've got. the only other alternative is to head off to other places in the universe and in order to do that we'd have to figure out how to live in a closed environment for an extremely long period of time that is even smaller than a planet. Biosphere II pointed out that we still have a lot to learn there.

last year for us the Roma tomatoes were ok for adding to the salsa to give it some more thickness, but they didn't do much for juice.
we put the green ones in the garage in a place where the sun didn't fall and they ripened enough for a while afterwards that we ate and put some up and made more salsa. not the best tasting, but better than throwing them out. some did rot. the worms got those.

just don't ask me to pull it...

Steve Peek recently posted to r.g.e or r.g he's got a fairly large blueberry plot so might have good advice about this.

har!...

read a while ago.

these are harvestable sources of fuels and materials.

not sure about this, once it falls apart then it can become host to bacteria, algae, fungi or concentrated by a critter which eventually dies and parts fall to the ocean floor. if we stop dumping such compounds into the oceans then eventually they will settle out and then get covered up. in millions of years they get pushed down under the continents and heated up to the point they break down or get turned back into oil.

if it is large enough to be filtered out then it is: incorporated in the animal, excreted or the animal is eaten before it has done any of the previous two things.
if it is incorporated in the animal then at some point it settles out and gets buried. excreted materials are usually coated with mucous often also with other stuff like bacteria and fungi. i.e. also things that tend to clump and settle.
i'm not worried about particles i'm worried about molecules that act as hormones, but as long as we stop putting so many into the waterways then eventually they get deactivated or absorbed and then are settled out. if enough get absorbed by people and that causes reproductive problems or more disease then eventually that will take care of the problem as the population will decrease either enough that the effect goes away or so badly that we go away. sure i don't want people to go away completely, i just want moderation and respect for other species.
i think the planet has a vast amount of ability to heal and cleanse things if we don't overload it. right now the world is telling us in clear ways that we are overloading it.

ditto!
songbird
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