On Microclimates

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I have some reading on geological history. My major was Mathematics, Computer Science with a little bit of Electrical Engineering. So I am not by any means an expert on geology or Biology. I sometimes I take a first thought route to problem solving and can make mistakes. If my reasoning is flawed I will change it. By reading Doug's postings, He seems to be on the Authoritative side where I am on the Anti-Authoritative side. I do not trust those that speak in terms of absolutes. It is in my nature to be the skeptic. Doug's last ranting is far from a thoughtful person. Still this is usenet where all opinions can be expressed, even from my rantings :)
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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Societies failed because dogma outweighed objective assessment.
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Food for Climate Skeptics
"The frigid winter now ending may be, unhappily, no fluke. The warming trend that had dominated world climate during most of the years since 1880 appears to have come to an end. Murray Mitehell, Jr., of the U.S. Weather Bureau reported that mean annual temperatures have dropped in both Northern and Southern hemispheres by 0.2 degree Fahrenheit since the early 1940s. In many areas climatic conditions have already returned to those that prevailed in the 1920s. The downturn has allayed fears about the 'greenhouse effect,' in which a rising concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, due to increased use of fossil fuels, was supposed to be trapping more and more solar energy. But the reasons for the cooling are unknown." -- Daytime temperatures had fallen during the 1940s and 1950s as aerosol haze created by industrial pollution reflected sunlight.
Scientific American, March, 1961 (reprinted in the March, 2011 edition)

The Soviet Union was never a Socialist, much less a Communist country any more than the colonialists who threw tea into Boston Harbor were Indians. The Soviet Union was a dictatorship under Uncle Joe, and an oligarchy afterwards. Any social benefits were incidental.

To what end is this power of which you speak? My view is that it is the power to keep corporate sponsors to fund election campaigns, which is contingent on legislation which increases corporate revenues. 87% of corporate stock is owned by 1% of the population. By and large, it is the extractors of fossil fuels (which are responsible for the release of CO2 into the atmosphere) which are the most vocal deniers of Global Warming.
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<http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2011/3/7/michael_moore

MICHAEL MOORE: America is not broke. Contrary to what those in power
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My new signature thank you.
Bill who has about 20 F. low for four more nights before a break. 40 F. high right now. Started some caladiums this morning.
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Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden






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Aren't you supposed to mark the topic OT when you talk about gardening? ;O))
How far are you from North Carolina where the Cook is in full gardening mode? Seems very strange.
My tomatoes have stuck their little dicots out. The second round of peas are starting to show themselves and the Romanesco broccoli is stretching for the grow lights.
If you like weekends, thank a union.
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are in winter. Distance I'd guess about 600 miles.

I plan to plant late as a general rule as I have light issues aka tree work in the next two months. Trying to enhance the microclimate.
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Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

Unemployment is capitalism's way of getting you to plant a garden.
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Planting through clear plastic will warm the soil.
If you like weekends, thank a labor union.
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approach? What has it to do with the Soviet Union?

> is real quite

This is a socialist approach that failed in the USSR? Please, tell me more.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_forcing>
In the 1970s there was increasing awareness that estimates of global temperatures showed cooling since 1945. Of those scientific papers considering climate trends over the 21st century, only 10% inclined towards future cooling, while most papers predicted future warming.[2] The general public had little awareness of carbon dioxide's effects on climate, but Science News in May 1959 forecast a 25% increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide in the 150 years from 1850 to 2000, with a consequent warming trend.[3] The actual increase in this period was 29%.

of content?

analogical representations of reality. It simply means that any mathematical representation would have to account for certain, measured eccentricities.

I'm sure that "socialism" holds some sort of implied meaning for you besides the stated dictionary definition: socialism noun a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned OR regulated by the community as a whole.
Our entry into our latest wars wasn't regulated, it was staged. Our biggest oil spill avoided environmental regulations. The economic mugging of America, was caused by de-regulation.
So your a neo-liberal then? Nothing should interfere with profits? Not even democracy?

neighbors, or greed?

And while individual free-market environmentalists plant bushes and trees, install solar cells and wind generator, and compost, free-market power producers produce low cost energy from fossil fuel. Low cost if you don't count the social cost of remediation of the atmosphere, and water, not to mention eco-nuclear and containing radioactive releases.
It's called privatizing the profits and socializing the costs, here in the best of all possible neo-liberal worlds.
Reducing CO2 emissions, painting roofs white, and burying charcoal, aren't political acts but attempts at survival.
Can you back-up, and approach "Global Warming" without the political baggage?
If you like weekends (40 hr/5 day weeks), thank a union.
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expect considering the fiery origins of the planet.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geologic_temperature_record#Overall_view>
Global warming can happen because of increased CO2 levels, or increased solar luminance. Heightened CO2 levels have preceded at least 5 GLOBAL MASS EXTINCTION'S.

Note: "faith" means believing in something in the abscence of objective proof.
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In my argumentation I think I stated in the last millennia, one thousand years, global warming was not to be found. I admit millions of years ago global warming occurred as the earth was still forming and dinosaurs were roaming around. Doug was indicating in recent history of the "recent" ice ages was followed by global warming a higher than normal temperature. I view which I reject.
Also to me, "facts are not all there" seems to have the same meaning as "absence of objective proof". Are we going to be splitting hairs over this seemingly same definition :)
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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To my ear "facts are not all there" implies the existence of facts not put into evidence.
The last "ice age" (not counting the movie) was 11,000 years ago. We are in an "inter glacial period at present (The Holocene). The "mini ice age" from 1000 CE to 1450 CE was a small change unless you lived in Iceland, where even the Inuit were having a hard time of it.
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Correct! in my book of philosophy. I believe in evolution of man even though all the facts are not there. Someday the facts may be there. If a system has contradictions I will dismiss the theory as false. I believe all religions have contradictions therefore a false belief. I know for others, contradictions in a belief system does not matter.

I am not positive however I am not sure but was the ice age, 11,000 years ago caused by a super volcano or meteor impact, rather than the Sun. I am fairly certain the mini ice ages was caused by volcanos. I know the sun has a cycle every eleven years for sun spots. Not sure about long term temperatures. The earths magnetic field can flip flop changing the environment, but no sure about its effect on temperature.
I imagine when the Sun turns into a red giant in a billion years the Earth will warm up a whole lot.
Garden center today had some great spring sales today, free hotdogs, donuts and coffee. Soon to enjoyment comes.
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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I was very tired when I wrote that last posting. I am going to take a nap and hope the fogginess of the mind goes away. It was a bit gibberish.
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Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

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I'm a big fan of siestas :O)
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Hey, let's not push. It will be 5 billion years before the Sun goes "red giant" on us. You made me think that I was running out of time;O)

Thanks for the Jared Diamond cite. <http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/jared_diamond_on_why_societies_collaps e.html>
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Nad R wrote:

Genetic engineering and DNA sequencing are facts. The current model for human evolution is a best guess based on current evidence and that will certainly change as new evidence is uncovered. What will not change is the chemical basis for evolution - inheritance and breeding both of which are statistical in nature. There will be change in a lot of the details in our understanding of genetics (RNA activity, protein folding, all sorts of stuff) but not how basic DNA->RNA->protein works and not how DNA encodes the next generation and not statistical population models.

Based on your experience with one religion and your having been poisoned by it. Check. You are going to believe that all religions are alike and that's that. Doesn't really matter as religion is optional in civilized society.

There have been a lot of cycles of ice ages and warm ages in geologically recent past. Those are too evenly repeated to have volcanic causes. The "little ice age" could easily have had a volcanic cause.

Today they had a type of bromeliad I had not seen before. Flattened red leaves that looked like a hand sticking up out of the main green leaves.
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Comparison with the known leads to an understanding (correct or not).

Then why do my tax dollars (not optional) go to printing, "In God We Trust" on our currency? Or do you contend that we aren't a civilized society?
Bush's 3rd term: OBAMA
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Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in
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Billy wrote:

Awareness of hypocricy is acknowledging the errors of a specific religion. Look carefully and any faith will have some problems. To assume that all suffer from the same problems is to be poisoned. They do not.
There's a further issue not just with Buddhism not addressing deity. All or almost all religions tell stories. Do not confuse the fact that a couple of very popular religions make the mistake of claiming their stories are literally true with the fact that stories get told. Those are two separate topics. To most faiths the stories are fiction that teaches. To a couple of faiths the stories are supposed to be literally true that also teach.
Is there actually a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? No. It's a tale about chasing get rich quick schemes, complete with the gold disappearing after a day. The real gold in the rainbow is the warm glow in our hearts when we watch a rainbow. Two levels of mythical meaning in the same tale, both of which are true and neither of which appear in the tale itself. That's how the tales of other faiths work. It is in fact a tale from one of the other faiths.
Did Odin really turn into a one eyed snake, drill into a mountain, secude a maiden, retrieve the mead of inspiration, return it home, and dribble some onto humanity as he returned? No. It's an adventure tale for the children, a barrage of sexual innuendo for young couples, a view of the cycles of life for the elderly.
Did Sampson really lose his strength because his hair was cut? If there even was a human named Sampson. No. Becoming a kept man might have had a bit more to do with it. The hair is a symbol for changed social status not a literal source of strength.

Civilization is a floating point not a binary number. Putting "In God We Trust" on the coinage about the time of the US Civil War and on the paper currency about the time of WWI was a departure from the principles of freedom of religion. Adding "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance about the time of the Korean War was also a departure from the principles of freedom of religion. Freedom of religion must include freedom from religion.
Both in both cases they can be viewed as a description of the majority of the population not as harassing atheists. And in both cases it's more generic than the majority might have liked. The US Constitution forbids establishing a state religion but it does not forbid noticing that the majority of the population is religious. I don't like either situation but I understand how and where the line gets drawn. That I would draw the line in a different place is less important than that the line does get drawn - The government can't fund any specific religion and can't drive out any specific religion, but the government can acknowledge that religion is popular with the majority.
No civilization is perfect in any of its stances. These two examples of how freedom of religion and separation of church and state can be bent without being broken. The bending is the bad part, the departure from the 1.00 value. The not breaking part is the good part, adding another dimension. The US in specific and the west in general lead the world in separation of church and state and religious freeodm. The US screws it up on certain points. The logo on the money and the words in the Pledge are among the screw ups.
Rosemary at the store yesterday. It didn't have as much aroma as I expected.
Long pepper in my eggs this morning. It's not as hot as round peppercorns. Not sure how to describe the flavor. Somewhere like Worchestershire Sauce or cloves. As if those two have enough in common for such a description to make the slightest sense. So now to try long pepper flavored spice cookies! Gluten free as usual. I figure the tee shirt will say "Uncle Dag went on a caravan with the Varangian Guard and all we got was this recipe for spiced cookies flavored with an exotic southern spice".
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Hypocrisy is saying one thing, and doing another.
I guess what bothers me is your out and out dismissal of Nad's revelations, not that they are superior or inferior to your's. I'm inclined to see religions as power structures (and we all know what power does) that place themselves between the believer and their god. That the god of love and mercy can be morphed into Jerry Falwell's god of jealousy and revenge, is beyond my ability to reconcile. That we are called on to worship this god is offensive to my democratic principals. Call it hubris, if you will, but I have a much easier time believing that a perfectly good religion can be based on a pack of lies, especially if it exhorts its followers to reason.
Many good things have been done in the name of god, the Quakers come to mind, as well as religiously funded clinics, schools, and water projects. I can relate to an extent to Nad's situation, in that when I was a teenager I started to question the church I belonged to, when they shunned a church member who became pregnant out of wedlock. I briefly considered converting to Judiasm, but the examination of hypocrisy that I had started on with Christianity soon overwhelmed any possibility that I could believe in Judaism. Buddhism (not a religion, but still a belief) seems the only hypocrisy free belief, until you come to the philosophical schism between Hinayana, and Mahayana Buddists.
I won't post again on this thread, bbut I will read any response that you may have.
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I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves. An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. - Albert Einstein
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. - Albert Einstein
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If you like weekends (8 hr./day & 40 hr./week), thank a labor union.
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Billy wrote:

He asserts that all religions are in conflict with science. I'm a member of one that is not. I know of plenty of others that are not.
He asserts that science answers the why. It does not. Science measures but does not assign moral value. Science describes the mechanisms without addressing the meaning of life. Science can direct goals but it can not supply goals except regarding the growth of science.

That's the religious organizations. Some have a lot more than others but all have some. Religions tell about spirits, about what happens after death, offer answers to the questions about what life means and what are the goals of life. The religions also have certain features included because the market demands they must. They must teach some form of ethics, though the ethics come from the universe not from the religion. Religions use allegory to teach ideas indirectly.
Philosophy can assign moral value, address the meaning of life, supply goals. Religion can be viewed as a branch of philosophy or as a competitor to philosophy. Philosophy can be viewed as a branch of religion. I tend to see them with a Venn diagram showing their overlap, neither being a subset of the other. Various religions have various overlaps with various philosophies. To the extent your values are important to you it is usual to inspect how the various religions overlap, consider the ones with good overlaps, reject the ones with bad overlaps.
Religions teach a spiritual approach to life. How does this tie in to gardening? Gardening is one aspect of a spiritual approach to life. Sometimes the spiritual experience is in the background, sometimes in the foreground. One time I was digging up a part of the lawn to install stones to add a walkway next to the driveway. Landscaping that's not quite gardening.
As I dug and cut through roots and exposed bugs and worms I saw in my heart how the world is alive. The story of how Odin and his brothers slew Ymir and crafted the world from his body went from a story to tell children to something I was experiencing transmitted through the blade of the shovel into my hands. The ground is alive. That's science. That's also religion of the sort that I want to be a member of. If a religion does not teach that that's not a religion that will hold my interest. If a religion does teach that I'll look further into how it transmits meaning and value.

It can fill volumes how it came about that democratic principles can to be in the various regions of pre-Christian Europe in various forms and how they interacted with the evolution of Christianity as it overwhelmed the older religions then proceeded to absorb parts of them.

Telling a bunch of stories is only lies if you claim the stories are not fiction. Only the JCI family does this.
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