OK to use ammonia on edible plants.

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If you don't like my political propaganda, then you must be one of Gov. Walker's stooges, just another capitalist shill, undermining American values by trying to distract from the corporate coup d'Etat taking place in America now. I'd heard that a lot of you were hired recently.
"Cal Who" doesn't trust Americans, and tries to do his own little COINTEL by discrediting the presentation of facts that differ from the seditious beliefs of his corporate masters, who supports Wall Street investment banks, environmental polluters, pointless & endless wars, and the Bush/Obama administration.
Why are you UN-American,"Cal Who"?
"Cal Who", why do you hate America?
You "Brown Shirts" are all the same, dumb. You're days are numbered. When you're no longer useful, you're gone. Real gone, Bozo.
Up yours "Cal Who". -
Bush's 3rd term: Obama
Bush's 4th term: another empty corporate suit -
<http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/01/stiglitz200901
THE ECONOMIC CRISIS Capitalist Fools Behind the debate over remaking U.S. financial policy will be a debate over who¹s to blame. It¹s crucial to get the history right, writes a Nobel-laureate economist, identifying five key mistakes‹under Reagan, Clinton, and Bush II‹and one national delusion. BY JOSEPH E. STIGLITZ (American economist, a professor at Columbia University, recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences (2001) and the John Bates Clark Medal (1979), the former Senior Vice President and Chief Economist of the World Bank.) JANUARY 2009
There will come a moment when the most urgent threats posed by the credit crisis have eased and the larger task before us will be to chart a direction for the economic steps ahead. This will be a dangerous moment. Behind the debates over future policy is a debate over history‹a debate over the causes of our current situation. The battle for the past will determine the battle for the present. So it¹s crucial to get the history straight.
What were the critical decisions that led to the crisis? Mistakes were made at every fork in the road‹we had what engineers call a ³system failure,² when not a single decision but a cascade of decisions produce a tragic result. Let¹s look at five key moments.
No. 1: Firing the Chairman In 1987 the Reagan administration decided to remove Paul Volcker as chairman of the Federal Reserve Board and appoint Alan Greenspan in his place. Volcker had done what central bankers are supposed to do. On his watch, inflation had been brought down from more than 11 percent to under 4 percent. In the world of central banking, that should have earned him a grade of A+++ and assured his re-appointment. But Volcker also understood that financial markets need to be regulated. Reagan wanted someone who did not believe any such thing, and he found him in a devotee of the objectivist philosopher and free-market zealot Ayn Rand (Alan Greenspan).
To read the complete story, pick up a copy of The Great Hangover: 21 Tales of the New Recession from the Pages of Vanity Fair (Harper Perennial), available online and at better booksellers now. -
JUAN GONZALEZ: What about this issue of the government¹s bailout being aimed primarily at the financial institutions rather than the homeowners who‹and the defaults that are at the root of the crisis?
PAUL CRAIG ROBERTS: Yes. Well, it suggests that the bailout is either incompetence or fraud, because the problem, according to the government, is the defaulting mortgages, so the money should be directed at refinancing the mortgages and paying off the foreclosed ones. And that would restore the value of the mortgage-backed securities that are threatening the financial institutions. If the value was restored, the crisis would be over. So **there¹s no connection between the government¹s explanation of the crisis and its solution to the crisis**.
(Paul Craig Roberts, former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury Department in the Reagan administration and a former associate editor of the Wall Street Journal. He has taught at Georgetown University and Stanford University and is the author of many books, including Supply-Side Revolution: An Insider¹s Account of Policymaking in Washington.) <http://www.democracynow.org/2008/10/17/ex_asst_treasury_sec_paul_craig -
Free Lunch: How the Wealthiest Americans Enrich Themselves at Government Expense (and Stick You with the Bill) by David Cay Johnston
<(Amazon.com product link shortened) 2CMLQXY/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid01520870&sr=1-1> (Available at a library near you.)
12 FREE LUNCH In the past quarter century or so our government has enacted new rules that have created not only free markets, but rigged ones. These rules have weakened and even destroyed consumer protections while increasing the power of the already powerful.
The distribution of incomes also reflects the tools that society provides citizens to support themselves. Children who go to schools with minimally competent teachers, outdated textbooks, and asphalt play- grounds are unlikely to have the same economic success as children who attend schools with master teachers, the latest books supplemented by music, arts, and laboratories, and expanses of lawn for play.
We do not live in a laissez-faire economy in 'which there is no inter- ference from government and people are allowed to do as they please, operating the economy by making contracts with one another. We have rules. Over the past three decades the rules affecting who wins and who loses economically have been quietly and subtly rewritten.
The richest Americans and the corporations they control shaped and
MR. REAGAN'S QUESTION 13
often wrote these new rules and regulations under which our economy now functions. The rich and their lobbyists have taken firm control of the levers of power in Washington and the state capitals while remaking the rules in their own interests. They have also imbued private organizations with the power to make rules that few outside of the process understand, but that influence the distribution of income. These same people also just happen to be the primary source of the campaign donations that put politicians in office and keep them there. Politicians, as lawmakers, enact the rules. As presidents and governors they appoint both the administrators who decide when to enforce the rules and many of the judges who interpret them. -
Limitless greed, unrestrained corporate power and a ferocious addiction to foreign oil have led us to an era of perpetual war and economic decline. Young people today are staring at a future in which they will be less well off than their elders, a reversal of fortune that should send a shudder through everyone.
Nearly 14 million Americans are jobless and the outlook for many of them is grim. Since there is just one job available for every five individuals looking for work, four of the five are out of luck. Instead of a land of opportunity, the U.S. is increasingly becoming a place of limited expectations.
the Economic Policy Institute has reported, the richest 10 percent of Americans received an unconscionable 100 percent of the average income growth in the years 2000 to 2007
G.E. is the nation¹s largest corporation. Its chief executive, Jeffrey Immelt, is the leader of President Obama¹s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness. You can understand how ordinary workers might look at this cozy corporate-government arrangement and conclude that it is not fully committed to the best interests of working people. Overwhelming imbalances in wealth and income inevitably result in enormous imbalances of political power. So the corporations and the very wealthy continue to do well. The employment crisis never gets addressed. The wars never end. And nation-building never gets a foothold here at home. <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/opinion/26herbert.html?_r=1&ref=bobher bert> -
Of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%
Americans have been watching protests against oppressive regimes that concentrate massive wealth in the hands of an elite few. Yet in our own democracy, 1 percent of the people take nearly a quarter of the nation¹s income‹an inequality even the wealthy will come to regret. BY JOSEPH E. STIGLITZ (American economist, a professor at Columbia University, recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences (2001) and the John Bates Clark Medal (1979), the former Senior Vice President and Chief Economist of the World Bank.) MAY 2011
It¹s no use pretending that what has obviously happened has not in fact happened. The upper 1 percent of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation¹s income every year. In terms of wealth rather than income, the top 1 percent control 40 percent. Their lot in life has improved considerably. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent and 33 percent. One response might be to celebrate the ingenuity and drive that brought good fortune to these people, and to contend that a rising tide lifts all boats. That response would be misguided. While the top 1 percent have seen their incomes rise 18 percent over the past decade, those in the middle have actually seen their incomes fall. For men with only high-school degrees, the decline has been precipitous‹12 percent in the last quarter-century alone. All the growth in recent decades‹and more‹has gone to those at the top. In terms of income equality, America lags behind any country in the old, ossified Europe that President George W. Bush used to deride. Among our closest counterparts are Russia with its oligarchs and Iran. While many of the old centers of inequality in Latin America, such as Brazil, have been striving in recent years, rather successfully, to improve the plight of the poor and reduce gaps in income, America has allowed inequality to grow. <http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-20110 5> -
If you like weekends (8 hr./day & 40 hr./week), then thank a labor union. They paid for it in blood. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair>
Anybody not understand what unions have done for us, and our country? They protected us from capitalist vultures.
--
- Billy
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies in
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Billy wrote:

Intelligent people come to different political stances. Sincere people understand this and respect the political differences of others. Your post said more about your sincerity than you probably wanted it to.
There's all sorts of political discussion in American. There always has been. Across time the amount of partisan vitriol was gone up and down. That part is nothing new.
Here's what I think gets too little discussion -
The US form of government in specific and the republic model in general was evolved in a time when corporations did not exist and when corporations were new. The republic model does not take into account that corporations are immortal in addition to governments. Either corporations or governments can die, but they can also live for extremely long times. History has shown that as governments age their size has grown and their oppression has grown. History is replete with revolutions because of this. So far revolutions have not yet been explicitly about corporations growing in that manner. I think recent revolutions have been implicitly about that.
Anti-trust laws were an early attempt to deal with this trend. They did not span governments. We need some other method of dealing with this trend. The republic form of government slows the growth of governments but does not solve the problem. Anti-trust laws slowed the growth of corporations but did not solve the problem. Constitutional forms further slowed the growth but did not solve the problem.
I don't have an innovate solution to both of these overlapping trends but I do know that the current debate about capitalism versus socialism is not going to help. That's just another pendulum swinging back and forth across history, and I don't think that trend is as new as those words. Looking back across history the trend exists as far back as history exists.
But corporations as immortal legal entities go back a much shorter time. The Hudson Bay Trading Company was the first one according to what I was taught in school. Companies existed before then but the form was different.
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Doug, my rant has nothing to do with the form of government per se. It has nothing to do with with corporations per se. It has to do with the corrupting effect of the top 1%'s wealth on the health and well being of the other 99% of the citizens.
The old excuse was the "Protestant Work Ethic". If your labors were rewarded, it was a sign that you were among God's elect, regardless of your behavior. Then, if your labors were rewarded, it became "Survival of the fittest" a la Darwin, regardless of your behavior. Now the "I" has been removed from the equation, and it is all about "Free-Markets", which allows the Pontius Pilots of the world to wash their hands of the results of their behavior (re: greed).
You know my fondness for quotes, so let me offer one from the capitalist's boogyman.
"Capital that has such good reasons for denying the sufferings of the legions of workers that surround it, is in practice moved as much and as little by the sight of the coming degradation and final depopulation of the human race, as by the probable fall of the earth into the sun. In every stockjobbing swindle every one knows that some time or other the crash must come, but every one hopes that it may fall on the head of his neighbour, after he himself has caught the shower of gold and placed it in safety. Apres moi le deluge! [After me, the flood] is the watchword of every capitalist and of every capitalist nation. Hence Capital is reckless of the health or length of life of the labourer, unless under compulsion from society. [81] To the out-cry as to the physical and mental degradation, the premature death, the torture of over-work, it answers: Ought these to trouble us since they increase our profits?" - Karl Marx, the Capital (Vol. 1, Part III, Chapter Ten, Section 5)
If you like weekends (8 hr./day & 40 hr./week), then thank a labor union. They paid for it in blood. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair>
--
- Billy
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Billy wrote:

When I read your posts I don't reach that conclusion.

As manufacturing jobs disappear to automation now early in the information revolution the way agricultural jobs disappeared to industrial farming tools early in the industrial revolution, phyical capital gradually declines in value. Does this mean that intellectual property is the next type of capital?
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Who cares. It's the concentration of capital that's obscene. Where are the jobs?
--
- Billy
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Billy wrote:

...snip 10K of irrelevant propaganda .....
Billy you are looking worse by the day. You are taking up stupid positions like the above where anybody who doesn't agree with you, including those who just want to talk about gardens, must be The Enemy. This is looking very paranoid. Why does a comment that you are OT deserves another long OT tract in return? Clearly nobody is going to read this kind of drivel, in posting it constantly your judgement is now faulty to a tee. If you must talk politics and save the world there are plenty of NGs where that is on topic.
As well as posting content that is useless for this forum you are getting more abusive. This kind of thing is entirely inappropriate:

The way you are going you will be killfiled by everybody here if you keep it up. Please reconsider before you self-destruct.
David
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When ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise.
Do what you got to do. 
And he gave it for his opinion, that whoever could make two ears of corn, or two blades of grass, to grow upon a spot of ground where only one grew before, would deserve better of mankind, and do more essential service to his country, than the whole race of politicians put together. -  Jonathan Swift, Gulliver's Travels
--
- Billy
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wrote:

No. When trying to get a message over it is folly to shout abuse in your listener's face because that will ensure they never get the message. You defeat yourself without the opposition doing a thing. This is religious behaviour and not rational.

So you don't care if you get killfiled, yet you so desperately want to be heard. Do you see any contradiction here?
You are like fanatics who stand on street corners in the rain for hours bearing witness to their faith. They imagine that they are giving people the opportunity to change their lives for the better, when in fact all they are doing is getting wet. It's self indulgent and pointless.
David
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make me want to scream.

he could have, but he didn't. I'm not thin skinned. If he had wanted to argue the value of neo-liberalism, we could have left it there, but he chose to smear me as a propagandist, i.e. a hypocrite. I've done some investigation into how the U.S. has arrived at it's present state of crisis, and I've tried to reflect what I've learned. Which is why I document my quotes. If my perception of reality is offensive to you, I think you should kill file me. We have a coup d'etat going on in the U.S., where already 90% of the media is in corporate hands. [As the New Yorker's former press critic, A.J. Liebling, famously said, "Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one." Perhaps that quotation is framed somewhere in a boardroom at the General Electric Corp., which owns NBC News. <http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thecutline/nightly-news-stays-mum-on-ges-0 -tax-bill>] To clarify this point, I should point out that G.E. is also a weapons manufacturer, who has paid no taxes for the last 2 years in spite of robust profits of $14.2 billion worldwide. So don't look to mass media news to find out if the neo-liberals* are coming.
They have been very quiet on the subjects of police blocking entrances to public buildings, and legislation being conducted in secret.

are those who don't want to be bothered, and there are those who don't want it mentioned.
If I am in a cinema and see a fire and shout,"FIRE", I'm not going to be too concerned with some guy who says,"Pipe down, I'm trying to watch the movie".

called an ad hominem attack. Why would you do that? Too lazy to use logic or facts? In any event, all analogies fall apart at some point, because they aren't the reality.

To sum up, I give my point of view, and I give supporting citations. You could argue that this isn't the proper place to express my views, but in this case, it was where my credibility was called into question.

*What is neoliberalism? In his Brief History of Neoliberalism, the eminent social geographer David Harvey outlined "a theory of political economic practices that proposes that human well-being can best be advanced by liberating individual entrepreneurial freedoms and skills within an institutional framework characterised by strong private property rights, free markets, and free trade." Neoliberal states guarantee, by force if necessary, the "proper functioning" of markets; where markets do not exist (for example, in the use of land, water, education, health care, social security, or environmental pollution), then the state should create them.
Guaranteeing the sanctity of markets is supposed to be the limit of legitimate state functions, and state interventions should always be subordinate to markets. All human behavior, and not just the production of goods and services, can be reduced to market transactions.
--
The main points of neo-liberalism include:
1. THE RULE OF THE MARKET. Liberating "free" enterprise or private
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In article

Well that off topic out of print book I posted "We're number one" which is out of print is so simple and so easy to understand I wonder if anyone will read it.
A token dealing with education circa 1989.
US is Number one in compulsory education. US is number one in funding to private education. US is 17 in monies to public education.
This from a pool of 19 industrialized countries.
Want more find the book.
--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

"The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow." - Anon
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When trying to get a message over it is folly to shout abuse in your

Why don't you think about using your own killfile rather than arguing with people who you find offensive or irritating?
This is after all a gardening group and unfortuantely there is less and less gardening disussion every week. It's getting to the point where it's almost not worth reading these days.
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wrote:

I couldn't agree more. The current population of "political evangelists" and arrogant academics is quite disconcerting. We used to ask and answer gardening questions in an attempt to help ourselves and others produce food. Today almost everyone wants to get up on their soapbox and preach their new religion or answer questions from a book (rather than actual experience). This group is slowly dying, it's a real shame. Steve
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I agree, without this continuous piling-on we could have moved on to gardening matters instead of turning mole hills into mountains, just so someone else could voice THEIR opinion. It's a real pity.
Steve, what are you doing different this year in your garden? What problems are you trying to fix. Fran, how did your garden do this year? What did you learn? What will you do different next year?
It almost made me ill yesterday to be pulling potato plants out of the bed in which they grew last year. I had no idea that potatoes could be so invasive. They have been moved to another bed that is less ideal, but that is where they will remain. Growing so many varieties of Solanaceae (potatoes, tomatoes, peppers) that it's difficult to get any kind of crop rotation going.
Our tomatoes have germinated, as have the squash (zukes and crooks), and brocolli. Peas are in the ground and we're about to plant more to fill in one trellis and start another. Some of the peas have died. Not sure if it's lack of water, or insects, but most are fine. Had our first serving of Swiss chard. I think I over did it with my attempts to gussy it up with bacon and onion.
Need to do some weeding today. It's mostly henbit. I'm hoping to make a salad from some of the kill, along with dandelion and stinging nettle. My other weeds are also mint (spear & pepper). They make my tisanes (hawthorn, yarrow) taste more drinkable as I don't use honey.
OK, who's next? Don't be bashful. We got a gardening group to run here, right? ;O)
If you like weekends (8 hr./day & 40 hr./week), then thank a labor union. They paid for it in blood. Real working class heros. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_affair>
<http://www.timeagan.com/MT/Deep%20Cover/
--
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wrote:

<http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8559254-11yearold-takes-on-genetically-modified-food-producers-video
Well, let's see. The fall planted garlic is about 18 inches tall. I've never grown hardneck garlic and am greatly looking forward to the scapes. The Candy onions from Dixondale Farms are growing well. I planted 2 bunches. There were supposed to be 60 plants per bunch & I ended up with 234 plants. (if you grow sweet onions & don't deal with these folks you're messing up) I've got a 40 foot row of spinach that's starting to get true leaves. I've always had germination with spinach, but not this year! The beets are just starting to show, no sign of the parsnips yet, Cabbage is growing well & I'm still waiting on the mache to sprout. This is my first time ever for mache, so I don't know quite what to expect.
I've got the prettiest row ever of sugar snap peas. They're only a couple of inches tall, but I see a trellis in the near future. The tomatoes under the grow light are just starting to show the first true leaf. Only a few peppers have sprouted, I'll start more peppers and eggplant next week. I've got a whole flat of bibb and romaine lettuce ready to go in, but it rained last night and the ground is too wet.
I don't know if I've ever posted here, but I'm an advocate of eating your weeds. Like Billy, I have henbit in the garden now along with chickweed, upland cress and violets. I occasionally teach an edible plants class and am always amazed at the number of people who would starve while sitting in a patch of food.
I got a great buy on some thornless blackberry plant early this spring & they are starting to grow. The apples are blooming, The bees are working like mad, the blueberries are about a week out. I picked about 2 pounds of morels yesterday and will go for some ramps (wild leeks) this week. Life is good (if way too busy) this time of year!
Steve
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I guess if Billy wants to talk about gardening I'll take him out of the bozo-bin.
Hope this isn't a fluke-- it is the start of a good trend,
wrote:

-snip-
Meanwhile, up in zone 5. . . I put some onion sets in yesterday. I plant some chard when I get to it.
My second set of peppers are starting to sprout in the basement. A mouse got the first sprouts. [and I got 2 mice so far] I'm trying to come up with a plan to warm those seedlings up a bit.
I tried one of those eaves de-icer cables on a thermostat. Epic fail-- it got hot enough to melt the styrofoam it was sitting on-- and blew a couple holes in the insulation where it was near some metal. I have an old heating pad-- but it shuts off after 2 hours. I'd like something that will cycle with the lights-- and don't want to pay the $50 that I see for seed starting heaters.
The war on rabbits has begun. The live trap has removed one and another is taking the apple from in the trap-- but not past the trigger.
I have some onions and scallions sprouting in the basement.
Need to plant tomatoes in the basement-- I got lots of colored cherry tomatoes to play with.
The watercress in the tiny-pond is starting to look edible-- but not enough of it to keep the algae down. I need to put the UV light in again.
No weeds in my garden yet-- I miss the purslane that used to be prolific there.
Jim
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Anyway, in this gardening group, it is a good idea to tape up a roll of dimes (careful, it is illegal) to keep in your pocket (You never know when they may come in handy.), and be sure to have a date for Beltane (hope it's a warm day:O).

seriously over charge. Go to a local pharmacy (preferably local). They have much better prices.

(alpha-linolenic acid in particular[4]) than any other leafy vegetable plant. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portulaca_oleracea> It is conjectured that hunter/gatherers had a 1 to 1 ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fatty acids. Today that ratio is more like 1 to 10.
In general, the advice is to eat more leaves and less grains. Unpolluted, non-toxic fish are also a good source for omega-3s as well, because the fish eat grass (algae) or things that eat algae, or phytoplankton (krill).

"When weeding, the best way to make sure you are removing a weed and not a valuable plant is to pull on it. If it comes out of the ground easily, it is a valuable plant." - Anon
-
--
- Billy
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billy BS snipped again..10 lbs of crap in a 3 lbs bag!
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guess; or, maybe, just unable to learn....
--
Derald

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It was a so so year (but then isn't every year like that for some crop or other?).
The plants that like the heat didn't do as well as they should have as we've had a coolish summer. The tomatoes are only now turning ripe and coming off the bushes in any decent number and we're now well into autumn. The zucchinis didn't try to strangle us in our beds and I didn't have a huge glut to split and give to the chooks. We did have a glut of Lebanese cucumbers but I suspect that the reason why this happened is because they've now self seeded themselves for a few years and so are used to our climate. The fruit (prunes/plums, nectarines, peaches, apples, quinces and pears) have all done brilliantly and we have had a bumper year to the poitn where I'm sick of dealign with the harvest.

Look after the trees better, get planting more veg earlier. Try to be more organised and focus more at the right time of year.

:-)) Yup. I've still got Purple Congo spuds coming up in a place where I planted them at least 10 years ago.
They have been moved to another bed that is less ideal, but

I just like the mint on it's own in 'tea' form.

Well David and I can sit back and put our feet up and read our gardening catalogues or chew the fat. You northern hemisphereans will be very busy.
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If you are not a "teatotaler" learn to make wine. All those fruits make lovely wine.

That's for sure, there's not enough hours in the day this time of year.
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