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well no, but what can you do in just 4 weeks? :-)
i do, however, think that symbolic actions are important (in terms of getting us all moving on to where we are going) & there's been a lot of that. actual sitting time isn't set by govts, so what can one do? in the meantime, i love the way they are going through like a dose of salts. we NEEDED it!
also, i am secretly shallow so keep that in mind when i say: i hate his ties. he never wears a tie i like. his taste in ties is absolutely foul. something should be done..!
but i can forgive a bad tie in someone who i sincerely believe is all set to do the right things, not awful things like <ahem> did.

all i can really say on this subject (like i even CARE!) is that neither of them (none of them!) could be worse than the incumbent.

charlie is noice. :-)
having said that, any country probably has a majority of nice (in their way) individuals. it's how they act collectively that matters, in many ways. that seems to be the problem with the farcical olympic torch business - most chinese people are lovely, but the govt there is appalling. i think some chinese are feeling rather oppressed in a personal way by the protests when it's actually a governmental thing that shouldn't be taken personally.

i think obscurity is great. not to mention, necessary. kylie
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Sweet Fester Arbuckle, but they really have to do something PDQ when they do sit again because it's now stretching out a bit too long.

It is actually. I think it's the Gov't Whip who sets it but if not, then at least someone in the Government.
so what can one do? in the

No doubt about that. A major purging.

:-)) and Therese needs a bit of fashion advice too :-))

Tut tut. I'm sure you do care as I can't imagine that you could possibly approve of the invasion of Iraq based on falsified information.
As allies and the richest most powerful nation on earth, when dumb decisions are made there by a very thick President, it impacts way beyond their borders. Look at all the shit we were fed so we too would happily (choke) send troops to Iraq too. The one thing I will give Howard is that although he looked like he was always supporting Bush, he was very careful about his commitment to Iraq in terms of troop location adn numbers, not that we could send too many anyway given our other international commitments.

Shhhhh. Don't let him hear you say that or he'll get a swelled head!

Yes. I still have not forgiven most of our compatriots about the Tampa. The majority seem to be a bunch of idiots given how often I heard the line about 'queue jumping'.
that

Yep, but so was ours till the end of last year :-))
i think some

Yup! Long may we continue to have it (says she with a sore arm - I got my Chloera and Typhoid shots today for our impending trip :-((()
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hm, i tend to think that they are, somewhat. i don't know. everything happens at a glacial pace anyway! i'm not sure how quickly things CAN happen, never mind "should".

but is there not a common sitting length over the year? & it's not 52 weeks, we all know that!! they just don't sit that much - they're often just not there, because (i assume) it's not practical to do so anyway. i don't know the ins & outs of it, but i'd be frankly concerned if some new govt decided to sit 40 weeks a year. while they're sitting, they're not thinking of what they need to do & talking to people about it, they're debating (& whatnot) stuff which has been decided while they _weren't_ sitting.
that's what i meant.

well she does, but she's not the prime minister so i'm not about to start criticising her. :-)

i didn't, i don't.
but i don't give a flying fuck who the president of the usa is, & that's the truth!! :-D whether i care or not i can't do anything about it, so i therefore don't invest any energy in caring about any of them.
honestly, all we are seeing is the bush effect - nobody in the world wants to see anyone like that in power again, EVER. however, since none of us can do anything about it, it's a mystery to me that anyone need pay attention until it happens. truly, they WILL let us know once there's been an election, i'm sure :-) no amount of fussing about it now is going to change anything, even though such a person will always do their overweening best to make it the problem of the rest of the world, kwim? bush is a problem for all 6 billion people on earth, & nobody wants that to happen again. but since the next one will be another american, s/he is still going to be our problem (just hopefully a much lesser problem). :-)

i think even rabid ideologues like howard were (grudgingly) aware of how his incessant arse-licking of such an unworthy person reflected badly upon himself. so he's doomed to be always associated with words like mean, tricky, and cunning. nobody ever said he was stupid - he's not. but that doesn't mean he was not the sole instrument of his own downfall - he was. the creepy little control freak. you get that when you're one-eyed.

he may not be able to fit his gardening hat on!!

oh dear. i think the truth is that most people worldwide are "a bunch of idiots". truly. the modern world is ridiculously complicated & lots of people simply can't keep up. that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or unworthy - it's just something you need to keep in mind. i don't know that there's any place left for people who just aren't smart or who are unprepared to think. they're being left behind. tbh i'm not sure what (if anything) could or should be done about it.
in the olden days, most people were chattel, peasants or serfs. these days, they have the same rights as the ruling class & expect that things are equal, but things aren't equal & won't ever be, because people aren't equal. an un-thought-out opinion is not equal to a well-thought-out opinion, is it? but modern democratic types expect everyone to have a say, based on the assumption (i suppose) that if a person is required to make a decision, they'll probably put some thought into it, since it is going to affect them. thus we try to drag each other up through the primordial slime :-) it kind of works, doesn't it?

to be fair to them, they weren't executing their own populace in droves, & stuff like that.

ow!
but see, i'm a pretty smart person (mostly ;-) yet i find it inconceivable that things like typhoid still exist!! it's hard for us to move outside our own brain & own experience, isn't it? kylie
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No. It used to be 21 or 22 weeks of the year (can't remember which) but under Howard, they reduced it to 18 weeks because they could guillotine discussion and ram legislation through. Large majorities make it easy for a Government to get its own way.
& it's not 52 weeks,

The trouble is that when the poor bastards aren't in the House, they're in their electorates dealing with all sorts of drongos. Sure, they get the genuine cases that need help, but they also seem to get an enormous amount of the knuckle draggers just taking up time and resources because they haven't a clue who to turn to for 'help' (or to whinge to). They spend thier life being exhausted from what I've seen of them.
It's job that no-one should seek to do IMHO.

Fair nuff.

And really, if he can do the job (still waiting to see) who cares what his ties look like?

:-)) Thought not.

Well there is that. Given how sick I am of the coverage of the Democratic contest, by the time the real contest comes round to elect the new President, I don't think I'll give a flyer either.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure that he doesn't still have a lot of supporters. I'd like to think not but.....
however, since none of us can

Well hopefully whoever it is will have a better grasp on Foreign policy and Trade than the current Administration appears to have.

LOL. Gotta hand it to you Otter, you do have a way with words!

Can't or don't want to. I can cope with those who can't, it's the one's who don't want to who give me the irrits.
that doesn't make them unlikeable, unkind or

Sadly it is. The coverage of the un-thought-out idiocy opinions that aren't really news, but noise, is all too frequent. These days, it's like the Enlightenment never, ever happened.

I have doubts about that and the Tampa is a good example of that. Foment it into a "they're coming to get us" issue and dumb old Joe Public goobles it up and screams "keep 'em out". Those who actually knew something about illegal immigration and refugee issues were screaming that these people were genuine refugees while stupid Joe Public was wittering on about "queue jumpers".
In the case of the Tampa and much else in the past 11 years it was a case of sinking backwards into the primordial ooze, not furthering the cause of rational thinking or high human ideals.

No, they didn't execute people, but I'm not convinced that they wouldn't have tried it if they thought they could get away with it given the tricks they used right across the board. I should lend you a book called "Silencing Dissent". The chapter in that about what they did to the Public Service is tame because only the top of the iceberg gets a mention. I know they did a lot more. Intimidation, threats, bullying and punishment - you name it, they did it and not just in one area of influence.

:-)) Take up genealogy/family history and you start to read about illnesses that are still out there in other parts of the world and in places we think of as first world countries. TB being just one of those diseases. Just for info, we chose not to be vaccinated for Japanese encephalitis and won't be taking the malaria treatment. If I suddenly stop posting, some tropical nasty got me (either that or my ISP is giving me probs as it has more than once).
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Sorry to say but Bush isn't the problem. Bush is just the sock puppet of the tidy rich in this country (World actually, what with "globalization") who don't want to dirty their hands, so they buy politicians (we call $$$ free speech) to pass their self serving laws (bankruptcy laws were tightened 2 years ago, to make it harder to file, coincidence?) and their press gives us infortainment which is short of information but guaranteed to titillate (and act as if the past never happened). And after irritating everyone (by sending jobs over seas, diverting colossal amounts of money (which is sorely needed for social programs: roads, schools, health care) to the military industrial complex, sending pre-approved credit cards by mail to everyone, exhorting us to buy houses, and diverting food crops into bio-fuels) they point at the 12,000,000 illegal immigrants (who we can't do without because they subsidize our dwindling life style) and say, "It's their fault". No, Bush is just the hired help. And now we get to choose from the lesser of three evils (eternal war, 5 more years of war with unwavering commitment to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, or health care that only an insurance agent could love (when most doctors and citizens want single payer). If the new government doesn't go after the malfeasance of this administration, then we are all in deep doo.
(See first URL in signature to understand "Who Owns America". The second URL is of our most supported ally and a template for America's future:-(

(snip, chop, whack)

(snippety, snippety, snip)

Especially when their governments and the media present them with bald faced lies or information that is so freakin' skewed, that reality is imperceptible. If you're a democratically elected leader of a country that opposes American foreign policy, you're a militant. If you're a ruthless dictator who supports American foreign policy, you're our ally for peace.

(snip)
Speaking of rational thinking, it was good to hear one of your countrym . ., hehem, citizens, Helen Caldicott, on the radio last thursday, http://www.flashpoints.net/ . She is supposed to be starting a new radio programm soon on KPFT, Huston http://www.kpft.org/index.php . Always refreshing to be exposed to reality.
--

Billy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net

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Well he certainly isn't part of the solution either, but he and anyone in his position should be.

Welcome to our world Billy. We had the a similar situation here for the past 11 years. I have voted for both sides of the political spectrum in this country but I am very pleased that not once did I vote for anyone in the last Government. By the time they got the axe, they too had become a weeping sore just as Bush seems to have done for you. You get your chance next year but I have to say that so far I'm underwhelmed with your choices.

But I see that as the fault of a lazy public as all politicians will try to use that sort of idiotic brain washing. It's designed to manipulate those within the populace who are gullible and/or stupid. Anyone capable of any degree of clear thinking should only be caught by it once. How many times does Joe Public have to be bludgeoned over the head about whatever the current political issue is, get all excited and whipped up because of the patriotic (usually) rubbish he's being spoon fed before he finally starts to think for himself and realises that the last time he was sucked in and believed the lies, he felt like a total fool when it all came unstuck?
It seems that Joe Public either doesn't care or is too stupid to know that he's being manipualted.
With access to the internet, there is no way that anyone should accept unquestioningly anything they are fed by the media. The world is a big place and access to all sorts of differing of views is only a few clicks away (or should be).

I've only ever read a few of the things she has written and heard her a few times as she has mostly lived in the US. What I have seen of her is impressive, as at least she seems to be able to use her loaf. Sadly there don't seem to be enough of such people around.
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Is it just me? I'm feeling a whole lot of 'tude here. Are you reacting t what I said or what you think I said? If this is to be a conversation, then let's keep it in response to what is written.
Bush is guilty but he isn't the puppeteer who orchestrates the show. He is a political hack representing his moneyed backers over the interests of the electorate.

You ain't the only one sister.

I don't know how Ruppert Murdock plays in Australia, but he is the most egregious example of media incompetence in America, but still, only the most egregious. Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse informed than people who don't watch anything. Viewers of Fox News are still likely to think that Saddam Hussein had WMDs. The rest of the media here is similar. The hysteria from the "corporate press" and the "reputable" N.Y. Times, and Judith Miller, helped convince the country that intervention was necessary. They were aided and abetted by Gen.Colin Powell, who most of us thought was a good guy.
Nearly all of our the media depends on advertising (except for free-speach radio like Pacifica and some college stations), advertising that would disappear for an un-American media that didn't support the government's declared intent of protecting the American people.

I must have been asleep when this happened, thanks for bringing it to our attention. We do the same thing to Haitians all the time:-(

Loaf? Typo or Aussi argot? She seems to tour a lot. My understanding was that she was live from Australia and her guest David Lockebaum (sp?) could have been anywhere. If You Love This Planet, hosted by Dr. Helen Caldicott http://www.kpfa.org/archives/index.php?arch &076
--

Billy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net

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It's must be just you because I DID respond to what you wrote. You wrote "Bush isn't the problem". There is absolutely no way to misinterprete that sentence as he is either the problem or he's not the problem. I think he's certainly a huge part of the problem as he's complicit and that is what I wrote.

And nothing I wrote in the sentence which you think has ""tude", disagrees with what you've NOW written. You are now saying he's guilty, whereas before you said he wasn't the problem. He is the problem just as there are also many other problem individuals and corporations and vested interests etc.

No. Despite all the hoopla, I've picked up from my reading that there are a lot of people around who aren't convinced by any of the candidates.

He pops over here now and again to see his mother and he owns a lot of media here but there is still good competition for all of his media including good free to air media, so he isn't seen as too much of a problem. We were all delighted though when he took out American citerzenship as we could claim that he no longer belonged to us.
Studies have shown that views of Fox News are worse

Yeah. Sad that.
The rest of the

I've always wondered how much of an orchestrated campaign it was in the US to whip up support for the invasion of Iraq whatever the cost. IIRC, the statistics supporting the war were about two thirds against and one third for in the rest of the world and the reverse in the US. I've always thought it was a deliberate and well planned con job and I've also thought that Colin Powell was conned too and that is why he slunk off into the night when it al came unstuck. How embarrassing for him.

Indeed. And given that any one of us is far, far, far more likely to die as a result of a car crash or even the flu, the hype over terrorism was rather over the top given the circumstances as terrorism wasn't new and had been building up since the Munich Olympics.
I've always thought that only 3,000 people dying in the WTC collapse was an alsolute miracle. It's appalling for the families and it was a huge tragedy but on the other hand, a quarter of a million people a day entered that complex yet only 3,000 were lost. It could have been so much worse so the survival of so many really is a triumph of American building skills, emergency procedures, heroism etc.

It was a shameful incident and until that happened, I had never felt ashamed to be an Australian.

Use her loaf = use her head.

I think she lives here now and has a place in a forest somewhere in either south eastern NSW of north eastern Victoria. I've seen her on a few panel interviews etc and she is a very good analyst of the issues
I'll check out your cites, but can't do them from this ISP that I use to read newsgroups.
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Editorial Reviews Product Description A frightening analysis of the tactics used by the Howard government to silence independent experts and commentators as well as public servants and organisations which criticise its policies. (Amazon.com product link shortened) /dp/1741751012/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid09750564&sr=1-2
--

Billy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KVTfcAyYGg&ref=patrick.net

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Well now, that was a noice thing to say! ;-) Thank you......wait a minute....unless this is some aussie slang thing that has a different meaning than I took! ;-)

Herd mentality is bad, bad I'm tellin' ya! It leads to stampede and the bastards could sweep us all over the cliff, though this may not be an entirely bad thing, given the condition of the planet and our contribution to the.....situations. I am thinking that the herd is starting to awake here...the "news" is reflecting this today, and the bleating has started....."gov't must helppp, gov't must helpppp".
Fuck me, bush is again pushing to open the anwr to drilling. The only solution to the oil situation is to retool our society and QUIT DRIVING SO DAMN MUCH!
I fear it going to get ugly. It is for sure going to become...different.

I think you have that right and should count your blessing....I've got 300 million members of the herd to worry about!
Rant mode off now.
Care Charlie
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<Charlie> wrote in message wrote:

well, not really!

probably. but really, i think that's not a bad thing (overall!). the disaster that forces one's hand to better things isn't really so bad. you have to take the broad view. everyone has to suffer sometimes, it's inevitable.

i'd be worried too if i were you <g> kylie
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wrote:

You are right, and thanks for the pat on the back too, but it was a bit of a surprise when I woke, decades ago, to the fact that we are not what we would like to think we are. I've spent the better part of my life working against this ethoegocentricity, along with trying to figure my own self out.......whee, I'm tired sometimes. And I piss off a lot of my family and others. ;-)

Heady mix? I can think of a better description, but not too polite....headfuck comes to mind. But you are correct, keeping abreast of things is difficult...oftimes, the good folk in the center of the country, where I live, are sometimes ten years behind trends on the coasts, both good and bad trends.

I consider you all fortunate, for the interesting country in which you live, your lower population, and your relative isolation from the rest of us stupid bastards. ;-)
Care Charlie
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 20:14:17 -0500, Charlie wrote:

They call themselves the Project for a New American Century for a reason.
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again david,
here is the transcript link to that food forest story i don't think it is the same as the food forest link:
http://www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2006/s2208413.htm
On Mon, 7 Apr 2008 21:56:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" snipped With peace and brightest of blessings,
len & bev
-- "Be Content With What You Have And May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not Understand."
http://www.lensgarden.com.au /
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On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:34:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"

I haven't seen anything by them directly, but Pollan and many reporters are showing some of their outputs.
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/aug2007/sb2007088_984272.htm?chan=search
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Feb07/Salatin.cover.AP.html
http://www.headwatersnews.org/WhitePostIndustrial112006.htm
And from the Headwaters site:
According to Michael Pollan, on one 100 acres of grassland and 450 acres of woods, Salatin and his family now produce:
30,000 dozen eggs 10,000 broilers 800 stewing hens 50 beeves (25,000 pounds of beef) 250 hogs 1,000 turkeys 500 rabbits
-------
I've gotta tell ya', these figures impress the hell outta me.
I'm not sure if this is the sort of information you are looking for. Your questions got me interested and searching your terms found quite a few news articles about polyface.
I find it encouraging, and I have read others state this, that permaculture, organic, sustainability....you have the idea....*can* feed the world. In a safe and harmonious manner.
Charlie
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AGRICULTURE IN THE CITY A Key to Sustainability in Havana, Cuba read it online or download it http://www.idrc.ca/en/ev-31574-201-1-DO_TOPIC.html#begining
have a squiz at http://www.cosg.org.uk/rosset.htm http://www.cosg.org.uk/mario.htm http://www.organicconsumers.org/organic/cuba_organic_food.cfm http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/120103_korea_2.html http://members.optusnet.com.au/~cohousing/cuba/an95rpp1.htm
rob
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