Large scale permaculture

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On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:46:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"

The irony of the situation is that so many of these cities are being swelled by displaced farmers and those once dependant upon the land.
Charlie
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Terryc wrote:

Whether they are "great for the planet" or not is irrelevant. It can be argued that 6 billion humans are not good for the planet. So what would you do about either?
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Any cites to support that claim of moving on after 7 years? I've not seen any such suggestion anywhere even though I do know that Queensland has a reputation for being full of knuckledraggers.

Unfortunately that thought now lives with the Ark.
The best land near the cities has all gone under revolting McMansions and people actually choose those things over living in high rises or older smaller houses.
My Grandfather used to run a market garden in Botany in NSW. Every time I drive anywhere near Sydney Airport, I think of those market gardens and how fertile that land would have been given what is growing in the area round there now. Mind you if it had come down the line of inheritance, my bloody cousin would also have sold it off to developers as he has done with the farm that he inherited as the eldest male. So poof, there goes a farm of 5 generations on land that was first selected and cleared by the first ancestor who came to this country. No sentiment for the fact that it was the only farm left in the district which was still entire and as selected and which was the only one still in original hands after 150 years. And because he likes money. And he really IS a good farmer.

Have you looked over the back fences in your area? What you say is all fine in theory, but I know from living in the country where there is lots of land, and even in the drought we still had enough water to grow veggies round here, how few people actually grow anything edible. Not even a herb patch!
They'll go and spend 2 bucks buying a plastic packed bunch of miserable coriander rather than spending a few minutes putting in a few seeds and doing a bit of watering now and then. A whole seasons worht of coriander could be had for the 2 bucks they spend, but they'd rather buy it than put in a small effort.
And if you've taken notice of some of the questions that appear here time and time again, it is obvious how out of touch with the soil most people are, and this is supposed to be a gardening group!
No-one with even a modicum of observational skills and who has grubbed about in soil for more than a few years would use a raft of chemicals on plants or would fail to understand the importance of insects in having a balance in the garden. But the basic questions keep coming... "how do I kill....", "how do I improve...." I often wonder whether people have heard of the library/google or know the role of the earthworm, or understand the most simple things about the soil, like microflora etc.
Most people seem to see their garden environment as a place that they treat like they are doing some form of extension of their home decorating. " A row of Mop Top Robonia and on the other side some standard roses" type thinking. That is all quite nice to achieve, but first principles of soil and it's management and how everything else relies on it seems to be almost an afterthought.
You and I both know that plants and gardens aren't home decorating, but we actually grub in the soil. Too many people seem to get wacky ideas from those ghastly TV/magazines on gardens rather than getting out there and learning by doing. And there really is no better teacher than time and experience.

Given that people now have to live in that denuded dry habitat land (and increasinlgy will have to do so in the future) I see no problem with trying to learn to use it and rehabilitate it.

They already DO have that problem. But given that consumers don't bloody care how many food miles their food has done, just so long as they can eat what they want, when they want, it is consumers who will get hit time and time again till they get a bit smarter and start to shop smarter. I cannot believe that any Australian would buy oranges produced in California, but the shops are full of them and they sell. I won't buy them but I certainklys ee many shoppers who will buy them without even checking the little sticky label on them.

No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of plague might not be such a bad thing.
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Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian flu that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your neighbourhood? I hope not.
There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change, overpopulation, land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to cause untold misery to billions along the way.
David
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On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:00:51 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"

I fear that is not possible, David. Speaking truth to power has, in my experience, little effect, and history bears this out, as witnessed by various prophets, seers, visionaries, and other illuminated and schmart folks who were ignored by the rich and famous and powerful.
It is alos interesting that John prophesied so long ago about a world situation that is taking on an amazing resemblance to what he said.
The challenge and the attempt are noble, and required, but I also fear we are simply pissin' in the wind. Yet try we must, while maintaining a watchful posture to sidestep what we are able.
I hope I am wrong, but like farml, I too despair of humanity most times.
Charlie
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Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again.

You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses.
Twas ever thus.
Charlie
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Heh. Sorry friend. I figgered giving you a nip was safer, and would be tolerated better than nipping someone else, like my Lovey fer instance. ;-)
Yeah, bit of a downcycle today. You know the routine. I have found that contained within the major fluctuations there are some minor ones as well. Kinda sucks sometimes. Been feeling the need for a couple days, but have resisted, as at this time I am well aware of where this would lead. What I need is to be able to go wallow in the soil and get the back of me neck redded and wear myself out physically. Days on end of cloudy rainy weather, this time of year, are not good for me. And they are calling for three more with snow on two of them. But I'll be alright, just gotta wait it out sometimes.

Heh heh, gotta remember which way to face when fertilizing. :-)

But you must keep in mind, the Egyptian world did go, as the world only extended to the limits of their knowledge. So it was for other societys. Unfortunately we have finally become viral and spread worldwide, so it only stands to reason, since the house of cards is now a global house of cards, for all intents and purposes of economics and dependencies, that a collapse will be of epic proportions. Collapses of yesteryear were of epic proportion to those who collapsed.
And it is intersesting that much of the turmoil, given our global dependency upon oil, is centered in one of large oil producing areas of the world,which by coincidence is also home to several of the worlds warring religions, and which coincidentlay id rumored to be the cradle of civilization.
But, having said this, I realize that for the most part, our knowledge, though worldwide and extending a very tiny way into space, is limited and we make our prophesies and predictions based upon this limited knowledge. All comes down to we really don't know shit from shinola.
The prophets of old may have been inspired (I do believe that some of us have seen with other eyes and things didn't appear the same ever after), but it is now not hard to see and project into the future the results of our actions. Destruction of resources and warring and food insufficiency on regional scales have simply gone global and a contraction is coming. Logistics bears this out.
But, as you say, perhaps the generations that make it, will have dreams that don't involve control and such and make a better go of it. SO, I quess our task is to try and ensure that some knowledge and some of the good ideals and dreams get passed on to the next generations. I'm doing my damndest to see to this.
As far as predictions of the end and God destroying us, God needn't lift a finger to end this. We are doing quite well ourselves and I am confident we shall succeed in our endeavour. We have freewill to do as we choose.

See above.

Actually, a little sunshine has helped considerably, though I'm still feelin' a little frosty. Maybe catch ya' later, maybe not til the morning, but I'm quite sure though that many of the good folk round these here parts are hopin' for much later. ;-)
Charlie
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You've got it. Store what you eat and eat what you store, so goes the saying. You are right about the whole wheat flour, but wheat berries store nigh onto forever, done up right. Who the hell cares what it looks like. Heh, we did the y2k routine. It was a damn good education and we now have many items that could prove to be necessary. Hmmm, reminds me, time to go thru the medical kit and update items. It's prudent to buy in bulk and there are many who believe in having a years worth of food in storage.
Here are a couple of really helpful things and good solid info to have. The water reatment faq could prove invaluable. I've printed them out and they are with all the other "manuals" etc.
http://waltonfeed.com/grain/faqs /
http://athagan.members.atlantic.net/PFSFAQ/Water_TreatmentFAQ-v2.2.html
We recently popped open a bucket of cornmeal on it's tenth anniversary of entering into storage. Smelled and tasted just fine. Been stored at a constant 50-60 F.
As far as the CO2 tank, I would think you would need a *very* slooow release so as to percolate thru the density. Feed your CO2 or nitrogen or dry ice from the bottom, as you no doubt realize. And fer cryin' out loud, don't do it in a small space. Ventilation. And if you use dry ice, I used a chunk about the size of a small fist, busted up, on the bottom, dumped in the goodies and set the lid on loosely and give it overnight to do it's thing, and then hammer home the lid without having disturbed the container. If you want double insurance, toss in O2 absorbers right before sealing.
I also tossed in the bottom of each container a goodly sized packet of silica gel fer the heck of it.
Have any questions, ask. I've been thru this thoroughly.
Charlie
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Those would work, anything food grade that is airtight. I use three and five gallon plastic buckets with gasketed lids. They are available a lot of places and can be scrounged from food joints etc. Hardware stores often have them, but they may not be food grade, but the addition of a foodgrade bag liner would suffice.

yeppers.

http://waltonfeed.com/cart/all.html#16 is one place.
Also saw this place and the price is good. http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID09
and here, this looks like perhaps the best to me. They also have mylar bags. http://www.sorbentsystems.com/order_O2.html
After I found these three, I found this article that listed all them. Damn, I'm good.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2085311_.html

Skeeters.....grrr. The dragonflies, bats and swallows give us nearly 100% control. We are fortunate.
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Forgot to add, I've also used gallon and smaller glass jars with good seals. Canning jars/lids, gallon pickle jars. These can be scrounged as well as buckets.
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So do I (when I'm not feeling particularly negative), but I would be surprised if we don't get another major pestilence of some sort.

At least 3 of those horsemen are already raging through the world in Iraq, Africa and each winter as Flu carts off a huge number of people. I can't quite see why the fourth wouldn't raise it's ugly head in due time too, but I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't wish for it.
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I only grow it during the winter, it's frost hardy.
David
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wrote:

Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I couldn't see this yesterday.
Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing?
David
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:41:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott"
snipped

g'day david,
some here think that this is my idea totally? but that is so they can protect their comfort zones at this time. i responded to your post, and along with what mollesin and holmgren also say we need change and as you poijnted out it needs to start at some point or the change will be harder and harder to do.
it took around 40 or 50 years for us to be taken to where we are now so it could easily take that long to turn around. so it is no good anyone exposing the hind quarters with their head in a bucket of sand, you know what happens while your behind is exposed hey?
this will take a drive from the whole community, but alas once we say never then never it will be. there is a lot more food could be grown at home than what there currently is so even there, there is no effort going on.
but anyway unless something new comes along this will be my last response as i see it i'm only a messenger, the problem is already occuring.
we need farmers with insight who can see that even without the permaculture label (which is about all you can realy say) they need to be very much more sustainable, and the farmers won't budge until pressure comes from the community.
every time i see tv shows of england i see this monolithic castles and edifaces with vast areas of well kept lawn and pretty gardens, yet i'm sure like here there are people in those communities that are short on food, so waht if you have to walk along paths between productive vege' gardens or fruit trees to get to the building.
food does not grow overnight it takes time for all crops to mature.
take care mate.
With peace and brightest of blessings,
len & bev
-- "Be Content With What You Have And May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not Understand."
http://www.lensgarden.com.au /
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but wouldn't most of us, if we could? :-) in reality of course, societies remake themselves as they go (seeing as how benign dictators are so very thin on the ground ;-)
Although he does give a nod to

well, i'm fabulously iffy about permaculture - not because of the permaculture itself, which is fine, but because of all the dippy twits who do everything badly & then walk away because it hasn't worked. also, it's quite a quiet movement (like organics in general, biodynamics, etc) so i believe you would find there's a great deal more going on than you immediately realise. and yes, making a dollar isn't inherently evil whatsoever. most of us cannot (for example) make shoes - we need money for that. true self-sufficiency by one person or family is impossible. it becomes possible within communities, though. permaculture farms most likely just carry on in obscurity, we don't know that they are there, really, even if we buy their products we can't see the farm & probably don't think about it much.

see, i believe that sort of thing is really much more common than we think. much of it can't be measured via "market forces" & other foolishness, so it's not. things that can't be measured via capitalist economics tends not to be counted statistically, so we cannot officially "know" about them. (sigh).

\ truthfully, i'm not sure anything does "replace" it. you'll have noticed that broadacre farming is changing itself, though. like you said, the choices are rapidly becoming to either do it sustainably, or starve. perhaps movements such as the permaculture movement have an obligation to cease being slightly obscure & to get out there more, i'm not sure; but when you consider things such as how mainstream organics has become (despite how quiet it is), how the most ossified farming brains are coming to use nature belts & windbreaks & things like that as part of their practice, i suppose that broadacre (for grains, etc) will carry on, just a bit differently than in the past.
you are dead right in that not everyone can have a bit of land, & truthfully i doubt that everyone should (imagine if everyone had to travel the distances many countryfolk do! it would be unsustainable). yet things such as the current tendency for completely mainstream gardening magazines & newspaper columns to encourage people to grow what they can in their yards or balconies, etc, is a taste of where this is all going (in my hopelessly optimistic view). sadly, the pace of progressive change can be positively glacial, it seems to me.
one last tiny rant: one thing i would love to see, which i can't see happening yet (but is probably going to have to happen very soon) is that governments need to put their foot down re overconsumption. according to statistics (tee hee) something like a third of westerners have an anti-consumerist mentality & tend not to participate in rabid consumption. governments think this is Bad & want people to consume until they drop (then consume something else to get them back up again). the day that govts get the brainwave that overconsumption itself is what is bad, things are going to change very much for the better, for everyone, because they have the power to legislate and we do not. in the meantime it is up to individuals to buy local, to limit consumption of stuff they don't need, etc; but people who do so find a lot of support with like minds (of which there are actually many).
all these things are interrelated. thank you for reading my rant! :-) kylie
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Current economic dogma says you must have growth around 3% per year for a healthy economy. Nobody knows how to do it with much less without having unacceptable unemployment. Thus the current model condemns us to be constantly expanding: population, energy use, mineral use, land use, must all grow indefinitely. Except that obviously in the real world they cannot.
Political systems around the world that reward short term popularity and punish long term planning don't help.
David
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we know that the current model doesn't help - it's getting the beancounters & other bottom-feeders to accept that is the problem. the first world govt to actively remake the situation is going to be everyone's hero.
of course, most govts that have a great idea are invaded by the u.s. & crushed for the next 50 years ;-) kylie
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Hey, you need to update! We are now on the Hundred Year Plan. Our Repugnican candidate, John McCentury is talking a hundred years in Iraq. Got Oil!
Foo, we yanks, gonna grab it all. All for us and none for others.
Fuck me, hurry and put us out of our misery and save yerselves.
Charlie
"All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind."
Adam Smith
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<Charlie> wrote in message wrote:

truly?! my goodness.
Got Oil!
(er, won't all the oil be gone by then?)

well, not to rain on your parade, but self-hating americans are nearly as tedious as the other kind! <g!> i know, it hurts to realise that nothing about yourselves is unique or particularly interesting in either a good or a bad sense, but you'll manage :-)
have you seen our spiffy new prime minister creating necessary, yet polite and pleasant, runctions in china? what a one he is!! i don't know that the general public actually _likes_ him or not, but my word, there is a great deal to be admired. sometimes he makes my jaw drop right off my head. you want to find yourselves someone more like that. (obama?) kylie
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There's something about Obama that I feel is a bit plastic. Dunno what it is but I just haven't warmed to him.
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