Is a Big Hunk of Steak Worth Almost 2,000 Gallons of Water?

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Obesity is the cause of type II diabetes.

All food that is closeset to it's original state is healthy. There is no single group of "healthiest food" but many people have made huge fortunes peddling snake oil advice to the gullible.
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Tied to bad diet.

Other than fiber, there is no such thing as an "essential carbohydrate". The FDA pyramid is stacked upside down.
There are, on the other hand, essential fatty acids and essential amino acids. This is why (unless you are really skilled at meal building), vegetarianism is generally unhealthy.
I've seen more damage done to pediatric patients that were forced to eat a meat free diet... It's why courts tend to sue parents for child abuse/neglect when they pull that nonsense.
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The current pyramid reflects the pressure from Ag lobbists. We produce 30% more calories in the US than we need to consume. The advertising budget for processed foods is HUGE and it is all aimed at getting us to eat more highly processed, large profit margin foods. The other line that ticks me off is that "all foods can fit into a healthy diet", bull pucky. Maybe now that "Corporate American" has sucked most of the money out of our society and so many people are out of work and at home, people will learn to cook again.
Loath though I am to say it Om, you know FarmI was talking about complex foods as opposed to simple refined foods like sugar, soy oil and, white flour. Pollan in his book "In Defense of Food" made the same point. The healthiest diet is organic and free range (if not just free). The stuff in the center of the store (processed foods) could kill you :-(

Given the quality of most commercial meat, I can't see the harm in a vegetarian diet (preferably organic) or mostly vegetarian diet. What do you see as the problem with a vegetarian diet or are we talkin' vegan?
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Absolutely.
The only time I enter the center isles is for spices, vinegar and some condiments. Oh, and tea...
On VERY rare occasions, I may purchase some frozen dinners (like if I'm going to be a way for a few days and I want to make sure that dad gets some balanced meals, and I'm picky about which ones I get), and I also do sometimes purchase frozen veggies. Frozen pearl onions for instance are about 1/3'rd the price of fresh, and keep longer.

I was talking Vegan...
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I do not believe a vegetarian and or vegan is a healthy diet. I have never known a vegetarian that was raised as one from birth. All vegetarians that I know of became one as an adult. I do not believe vegetarian's kids are healthy as well. Before I ever become a vegetarian, I would like to see at least several "four generations" of healthy vegetarian families first (I believe they do not exist).
Also in "Omnivores Dilemma" some where in the book, Pollan said that cows where stupid because they eat grass only. The qualla bear was probably the dumbest animal on the planet, because of their one plant limited diet. Pigs are omnivores and were as smart if not smarter than dogs. The conclusion is - humans have the widest diet of all the animals on this planet, therefore became the smartest animal on the planet.
Sooooo, if you want to become stupid, become a vegetarian :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4283585.stm
Where's the beef ... Dan Well ... Where's the grass fed beef ... Dan
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Opinions rebutted by opinions? You're wasting out time Dan. You can do better than this.
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Opinions based on observations. One could even call them theories. From one who seems to quote from Michael Pollan often, you seemed to over look one his many themes in his books. "Eat everything, mostly plants". Does not state eat only plants. I agree with this philosophy. The human invention of fire, which lead to cooking, probably improved the health of humans.
Time will tell if a vegetarian diet is better. I doubt it. Most vegetarians do not smoke or drink large amounts of alcohol. I would like to see such a scientific unbiased survey of this topic someday.
Enjoy Life ... Dan
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wrote:

i know several vegetarian kids. some have been raised vegetarian from birth, & a couple chose to become vegetarian at age 5 or so. they are all perfectly healthy normal kids. why do you feel that there can't be "four generations" of healthy vegetarians? humans are omnivores, but that doesn't mean they *have* to eat meat. it certainly doesn't mean they *need* to eat meat on a daily, or even weekly basis. it's quite possible & not even very difficult to get all ones amino acids etc. from vegetables, beans & grains.

first, cows aren't as stupid as non-farmers think (and they can & will, by choice, eat eggs & small birds/animals, which makes them... omnivores), second, it's *koala* bears & third, chickens are also omnivores & i really, really want to see someone convince me they're super-intelligent. in my experience humans aren't much smarter than chickens...
lee
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I have to see it to believe it. I am a skeptic at heart. It may take several generations for dietary flaws to show up in one's DNA. It seems that only in a monastery where one finds single people consuming a vegetarian meal where no kids live. Or the local family that lives down the street that just joined the Seven Day Adventist.
If vegetarianism is so great and beneficial to humans, why don't I see large groups of societies of vegetarians that has existed for hundreds of years. Is Darwin at work here again, survival of the fittest?

I may not be a farmer, Several family members are. My family use to owned a local (in the 1960's) slaughter house (I visited many times) that served the local stores and restaurants. I am less that two hundred feet from cows as I type this message.
Again - Cows are stupid compared to humans (on average). Pigs are smarter that cows. The wider the diet, the smarter the animal. Humans have lot more digestive enzymes than any other animal. Humans have the ability to absorb greater amounts of nutrients, therefore smarter.
Got me on the spelling of *koala* :)
It is my view. Time will tell if vegetarianism is a fad or not, like so many other lifestyle diets out there.
Enjoy Life ... Dan
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<snip>

Because it isn't so great and beneficial. It's mostly done by people that can't bring themselves to eat animals. Health has little to do with it, it's a moral/personal choice. Every vegetarian I've known was not vegetarian for health reasons - they just didn't want to eat animals. Or, put another way, I've never met a vegetarian that was vegetarian for health reasons. Animals are intelligent, life is sacred, and none of them want to eat them.

I've raised chickens, and I've lived and worked on ranches. Cows and chickens are stupid. Real stupid. Fish are stupid. Some dogs are stupid. All are good eating in moderation. Pigs are smart, but they are still good to eat. Horses are smart, but I never had a chance to eat one.
Observing that there is a relation between A and B does not make A the cause of B. Just because there is a relation between animals that eat a wider variety of food and smarter animals doesn't mean the variety of food caused the smartness.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics". And people that don't understand what the statistics are really saying (or in many cases, aren't saying).
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"Correlation does not equal Causation".
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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wrote:

Unfortunately, to all too many people, it does :(
How about "figures don't lie, but liars can sure figure"?
Problem with that is that it implies intent, and minimizes stupidity when in fact stupidity far exceeds ill intent.
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It amazes me how people fall into these cute little sayings and assume that they are true statements.
Like: "figures don't lie, but liars can sure figure"? Many figures do tell the truth.
"Lies, damned lies, and statistics". Many statistics do tell the truth.
"He sure stirred up a horns nest here" Hmmm ... thats one of my favorite sayings.
I am sure you can provide more of these cute little sayings. Insults are good also, they work just as well as sayings.
However, no one here has showed absolute proof that those theories are wrong. those theories are not mine, it was presented in Michael Pollan's book Omnivore's Dilemma". I do believe they are true.
Enjoy Life ... Dan
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Statistics and figures tell neither truth nor falsehood. Statistical methods describe data, and we make inferences about the data. But the data, the results of applied statistics, the figures, tell neither truth nor falsehood. We evaluate them, we consider them, we interpret them, we draw conclusions based on them. In the end, we decide if there is truth, falsehood, none of the above, not enough information, etc.

I prefer cute little sayings - they are more polite and convey more information :-)

If there was absolute proof one way or another, it would no longer be a theory. And absolute proof to one person is fantasy to another. People used to believe the world was flat, but belief never made something true or false. There will never be absolute proof of this, only opinions.
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Read further - I often use them myself :)

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I hate to break it to you Dan, but you can't prove a negative statement. So the above is meaningless, pointless posturing.

You like Pollan? Great. http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/michael_pollan_gives_a_plant_s_eye_vie w.html

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No need to break it to me. I already know that no one can prove a negative statement. The original postulates were not negative statements.
I am very familiar with the rules of logic. I have studied the philosophical rules and the mathematical rules as well as breaking down sentences into mathematical forms for computers to analysis in A.I.
It is the postulates that has a religious belief to them. One can simply agree with them or not. When it comes to reasoning - I rule it!
I do enjoy your discussions. I have know doubt when it comes to gardening and other earth sciences - You rule it. Your advice in many areas is second to none.
I admit those arguments about diet and intelligence are not going to change the earth or how we will live. I just find it interesting - After all it was you that lead me to those great books that lead to those discussions :)
I have no doubt you are an idealist. All of my friends are idealist, I am a rational, Idealist are extremely intelligent and quick to insult. However, sometimes their reasoning can get them into trouble. They seem to be very comfortable with paradoxes. They let me hang around because I have a different eye when it comes to their ideas. They also help me to sharpen those ideas that come around, in religion, philosophy, science and even in politics in my own life.

Seen he video from past postings - an excellent lecture.
Enjoy Life ... Dan
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Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan.

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You mean like amongst many Politicians?
Poly = many Tics = blood sucking insects...
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All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
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Are you taking the term "equal" as in being "bi-directional"? If so I am not sure that form of logic applies to the reasoning of past statements. I believe they are in the area of the Associative form of reasoning.
Enjoy Life ... Dan
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"Correlation does not "bi-directional" Causation".
I gotta tell you Dan, I've lost all interest in your vegetarians vs. carnivores, vis-a-vis omnivores, theory. The teeth in my head tell me to mostly eat vegetables and a little meat. It seems that most people of the world eat like that because raising meat commercially costs a lot of consumable calories. If I had to guess, I would presume that we would be better off eating all plants instead of all meat. But I really don't care what you think anymore.
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