Ironite Questions?

Page 7 of 11  


No one has said it this way, so I will.
There are three integrated subjects: Pests, soil, environment. If you ignore any of these in considering this year's problems you may be beset by them again next year.
With regards to the pests, clearly what you've always done has failed or is failing miserably.
The people you've posed the question to have all given their perspective and many responses have been quite correct.
They may not answer what you see as the urgency of your situation, but you would be served better by following up on some of them as part of an overall plan.
The one consideration I'd like to present with regards to your particular insect problem is pesticide resistance. If they are resistant, the only long term practical solutions, are likely organic ones.
With regards to the soil, iron is a micronutrient and unless something is seriously out of whack with your land, you don't need it. If this year's analysis says you do, kelp as a soil amendment should answer the issue with relatively little work and with 60 or so other micronutrients as part of the package.
If you are going by an analysis done in years gone by, you need a new one.
In response to your comment about organic matter in the soil I'd like to say that the healthier the soil, the healthier the plants, the less tendency for the plants to attract garden pests.
If you've been consistently using both pesticides and herbicides over the years, your garden's soil has probably lost some or much of the biodiversity that builds soil, and when you build up the biodiversity with compost each time you use the poisons, you kill it again.
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Right. That's why we try to use as much organic matter in the soil as possible. Raise our own seedlings or carefully choose well grown, insect free ones from the Nursery in town. Blood and bone meals are now too costly for us so we switched to 10-10-10, surfer and Ironite. The west garden, like the other two, had lush beautiful plants until the WF and SPs infested them!

Which organic ones since Pyrethrum and the hort' oils don't work.

It's needed because the natural high calcium, the high PH prevents plants from obtaining it. This is a poor limestone clay soil I have to work with. It's naturally poor in nutrients and high in PH and calcium. That's another reason I stopped using the bone meal for phosphorus and woodash for potash. These organic products were adding to the problem. The cost of blood meal for nitrogen put it out of reach now.
If this

I just had a new one. Everything was fine again this time but nitrogen. They recommended 5 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate per 1000 sq. ft. of garden or 1 to 1.5 lbs per 100ft of row. I was happy to see the PH at 7. We have no idea what that would be in an organic product.

I've heard that since the 1960s and haven't found it to be true. Insects and bugs will attack any plant they find that's part of their food preferences, be it healthy or sickly and stressed. To them it's FOOD or part of their reproductive cycle. That healthy squash will be as quickly infested by SVBs as the sickly one in your neighbor's yard. That gorgeous Impatiens will be as infested with spider mites as that half dead one on your friend's porch. Insects and bugs don't discriminate and have no immunity to infestation.

There was no poisons in that garden. Why would I waste time and scarce money spraying a new garden plot that never had a problem before and just laid fallow for 2 years? It was gardened for one season, laid fallow for two due to my accident, and planted this spring. I must have already posted this 10 times already. The two older gardens became infested AFTER the new one,... but not with SPs, just the WF. One of the old gardens is now totally infested with WF. The organic sprays were useless in that garden also.

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i think it is illegal to sell this toxic waste in most states. get greensand.

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i'm sure that any reputable garden center can and will get greensand for you. if you local home depot walmart and lowes don't have it, that is all the more reason to demand it.
you don't say where you are from, in my state CT the local NOFA has an annual sale you can also try peaceful valley if you are in CA www.groworganic.com or Fedco seeds in ME www.fedcoseeds.com should have it.

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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 07:20:18 -0400, "polecanoe"

Actually, as my nephew is fond of saying, that's not correct. Garden centers generally have to order a set amount of a product, so they're not going to order a pallet of greensand if they don't feel like there's a market for it in their area. I've had a very, very difficult time getting organic products since my favorite nursery owners retired. I actually ordered 15 5 lb bags of my favorite organic tomato and pepper fertilizer last year because none of the local garden centers and nurseries would order it. I figure I got about a 4 or 5 year supply for my garden and my sister's. I had to call almost every garden center and nursery in the yellow pages before I found one that carried a good quality potting soil that has no fertilizer in it.
I was very interested in trying some of the Pro-Mix products, and we even have a wholesale distributor locally; but I couldn't get any of the nurseries to get some for me. The cost of shipping makes ordering it on the web prohibitive.
Penelope
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn" < snipped-for-privacy@everybodycansing.com>
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If iron is such a scarce mineral, chances are it is scarce for others as well. You say I am incorrect. How do YOU know there is no market?
the dealers and apparently the buyers too have been duped into thinking that the only market that exists is for quick fixes. a reputable garden center would educate it's consumers.

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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 20:32:20 -0400, "polecanoe"
<egregious top posting corrected, as is only civilized>

My, but haven't the sensitive lettle fleurs sprouted in my absence.
Whether you or I think there is a market is irrelevant. Whether nursery or garden center owners do or don't think there is, or choose an alternative to either greensand or Ironite is their prerogative. Those who know their market on both ends stay in business, those who misjudge it don't. Insisting that they'll indulge the whims of every single customer is just plain silly.

Ah, I see the problem. You're defining "reputable garden center" as only those garden centers who adopt business practices approved by polecanoe. My definition is a bit broader.
Penelope
I've had a very, very

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You have proven yourself to be the most malicious,
classless person that I've encountered in years.
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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 21:28:37 -0500, "Marie Dodge"

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Watch your email for my reply.
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I doubt that, though organic supplies are often more difficult to find. It simply requires a little more searching.
Have you called these people? They seem to be in your neck of the woods: Dicken's Supply, 814 Cherokee Ave., Nashville, TN 37207 (615) 227-1111 http://www.dickenssupply.com/SOIL%20ADMENDMENTS%20POTTING%20MIXES.htm
Here's another company I purchase from. Biocontrol Network 5116 Williamsburg Rd, Brentwood, Tennessee 37027 http://www.biconet.com/index.html Give Eric a jingle, he'll treat you dandy. (800) 441-BUGS (2847)

You need to find a feed mill that handles grain and livestock feed. A 50lb sack of cotton seed meal $13.75. About the same price for alfalfa meal and close to the same for a 50lb sack of Fertrell green sand. Though I'm still looking for an inexpensive local source for 50lb sacks of feather meal and blood meal. I imagine I could order from the dealer I buy the green sand from, though I haven't tried.

It certainly is more difficult if the land doesn't produce the needed organic material.
Steve Young
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"Steve Young" <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote in message wrote

I never heard of them. I'm about 30 miles from Nashville and don't shop there. I'll call them in the morning and see what their prices are like. I would need enough for say a 900 sq ft garden. I don't see greensand listed there.

That's quite a distance from here. I don't see soil amendments at the site.

A 50 lbs sack of any of these products wouldn't go anywhere in my gardens. I'd need at least 8 to10 50 lb sacks to make a difference @ $13.75 each. How large is your garden BTW?

Aside from the house and gardens, it's all lawn and woods.

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Isn't that what you're looking for? new ideas?

Put together your seasonal needs and make one trip? Perhaps they have a truck that makes local deliveries? Maybe an employee lives down the street from you? Get creative instead whining and saying it can't be done. Most importantly, did you call them?

Adjust your glasses Marie, it's item #6 from the top of soil amendments. What did they say when you called?

How about 'soil care'? close enough? http://www.biconet.com/soil.html

Were you fibbing when you said 900 sq ft above? Methinks you are using these products incorrectly. They are side dressings and mixed only in the root zone when planting, or scratched into the ground around the plant during the growing season. They are not used like spreading fertilizer on the lawn. Why give weeds a boost? Eventually they will improve all your garden soil.
Did you look up a few grain elevators/feed mills as I had suggested? Or were you hoping I'd do that for you?

Just a tad under 3,000 square and I use less than $100 of sack products per season. I don't know why you insist on doing things the expensive way.

Lawn and woods, wow! what a great place to gather organic material. Do you have leaves that fall? I pull this behind my yard tractor and easily gather enough material to turn out 12 yards of compost annually. http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapterHTMLPage.aspx?Name=LeafLawnVacDual2Step&Chap=LLVMicroSite&Page=LLVFlashHowWorks
Steve Young
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Steve Young wrote:

http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapterHTMLPage.aspx?Name=LeafLawnVacDual2Step&Chap=LLVMicroSite&Page=LLVFlashHowWorks

Hey Steve,
Thanks! Great resources! I only knew about All Seasons.
http://www.allseasonsnashville.com /
Kate in Nashville
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"Steve Young" <bowtieATbrightdslDOTnet> wrote in message wrote

OK, I looked and they have a place closer to were I live. About 10 miles from here. I pass there every other week. :-)

No, our out of town company just left about 45 minutes ago. We weren't home most of the day.

I'm nowhere near Brentwood. That town is known as "millionaires row." Median Income: $126,800.00. Average home $500,000. I'll check out the other place.

Together, the three gardens come to close to 1000 sq. ft. We're enlarging two of them next summer, rock allowing.
Methinks you are using

I'll see what the place closer to me gets.

Yep! The closest one, Co-op, is about 30 miles from here. We have to go there next week for the 5 lbs of Ammonium Nitrate the Soil Test showed was needed. I have no idea how much organic amendments would be the equivalent of 5 lbs of that stuff.

How much Greensand do I need for gardens that come to 1000 sq. ft?

We do! Loads of it but it's never enough. It vanishes into the clay soil like nothing by fall. That's why we're now getting loads from the City mulch site. All the free mulch you can cart away. They grind and shred fallen trees and brush and other plant debris. We already got 2 loads. :-))
Do you

http://www.drpower.com/TwoStepChapterHTMLPage.aspx?Name=LeafLawnVacDual2Step&Chap=LLVMicroSite&Page=LLVFlashHowWorks My husband has a leaf-vac of the "same brand" (pulled by a large mower) but a different model. He picks up all the fallen leaves and has for years. He had another one before this one, but it was too small. We dump them on the gardens to rot down over the winter with kitchen waste, weeds etc. In spring we start tilling the rotted leaves under. We do it twice and something I do it a third time by hand with a spade shovel. Despite the impression some have here we don't use insecticides unless there is a real problem organics fail to handle... like the WF and SP invasion this year.

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Marie Dodge said:

I think one of your problems may be you are tilling too much. That alone will lead to increased loss of organic matter in the soil.
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/publications/files/sq_fou_1.pdf
I never even do any tillage (and for me, that's gentle forking) of the soil without adding organic material.
The only upside of sandy soil is that once broken into cultivation, it's easy to handle afterwards.
I've created enough of an oasis of fertility that we found (when digging for the second row of raspberries a few year back) that a neighbor's tree had managed to send one large root over 50 feet straight for the vegetable garden.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is comcast)

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Tilling too much or too little has no effect on insect pests. The recent soil test showed plenty of organic matter. OM isn't the problem. Resistant insects and spiders are. Pests are becoming resistant to everything we're throwing at them.

Then you don't have the heavy poor fine clay soil we do.

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