Heirloom Apples

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If you have any interest in heirloom apples (you know, the ugly ones that taste unbelievably good) you have to check out: http://www.bighorsecreekfarm.com/ . They have over 300 varieties. I'm gonna need more land. Steve
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Steve Peek wrote:

Steve,
I checked out their web site and they offer four rootstocks of various sizes. What was not clear was the possibility of selecting a particular rootstock with a given variety. There must be a way to do that, but I couldn't figure it out.
These people appear to be strictly organic, which is fine whenever possible. However, certain pests like Plum Curculio, Apple Maggot, and Coddling Moths probably will require something stronger than Rotenone, say Imidan.
Sherwin
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They do offer the option of selecting rootstocks.

Some of us do make organic gardening work quite well thank you.
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I

Guess most folks know about Rotenone and Parkinsons ?
Bill
1: Neurobiol Dis. 2009 May;34(2):279-90. Links
A highly reproducible rotenone model of Parkinson's disease. Cannon JR, Tapias V, Na HM, Honick AS, Drolet RE, Greenamyre JT. Pittsburgh Institute for Neurodegenerative Diseases, Department of Neurology, University of Pittsburgh, PA 15260, USA. The systemic rotenone model of Parkinson's disease (PD) accurately replicates many aspects of the pathology of human PD and has provided insights into the pathogenesis of PD. The major limitation of the rotenone model has been its variability, both in terms of the percentage of animals that develop a clear-cut nigrostriatal lesion and the extent of that lesion. The goal here was to develop an improved and highly reproducible rotenone model of PD. In these studies, male Lewis rats in three age groups (3, 7 or 12-14 months) were administered rotenone (2.75 or 3.0 mg/kg/day) in a specialized vehicle by daily intraperitoneal injection. All rotenone-treated animals developed bradykinesia, postural instability, and/or rigidity, which were reversed by apomorphine, consistent with a lesion of the nigrostriatal dopamine system. Animals were sacrificed when the PD phenotype became debilitating. Rotenone treatment caused a 45% loss of tyrosine hydroxylase-positive substantia nigra neurons and a commensurate loss of striatal dopamine. Additionally, in rotenone-treated animals, alpha-synuclein and poly-ubiquitin positive aggregates were observed in dopamine neurons of the substantia nigra. In summary, this version of the rotenone model is highly reproducible and may provide an excellent tool to test new neuroprotective strategies. PMID: 19385059 [PubMed - in process]
Related articles Subcutaneous rotenone exposure causes highly selective dopaminergic degeneration and alpha-synuclein aggregation. Exp Neurol. 2003 Jan; 179(1):9-16. [Exp Neurol. 2003] Melatonin reduces the neuronal loss, downregulation of dopamine transporter, and upregulation of D2 receptor in rotenone-induced parkinsonian rats. J Pineal Res. 2008 Mar; 44(2):205-13. [J Pineal Res. 2008] Neurodegeneration of mouse nigrostriatal dopaminergic system induced by repeated oral administration of rotenone is prevented by 4-phenylbutyrate, a chemical chaperone. J Neurochem. 2007 Jun; 101(6):1491-1504. [J Neurochem. 2007] Review The rotenone model of parkinsonism--the five years inspection. J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006; (70):269-72. [J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006] Review Controversies on new animal models of Parkinson's disease pro and con: the rotenone model of Parkinson's disease (PD). J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006; (70):273-6. [J Neural Transm Suppl. 2006] See reviews... | See all... Patient Drug Information Apomorphine (Apokyn ) Apomorphine is used to treat ''off'' episodes (times of difficulty moving, walking, and speaking that may happen as medication wears off or at random) in patients with Parkinson's disease (PD; a disorder of the nervous s... Source: AHFS Consumer Medication Information
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Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA

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Noted that last comment and suggest a good book by Matthew Biggs on this subject. I believe he's website has details regarding the veg book. http://www.matthewbiggs.com
Helped me a lot.
A
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alipally


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sherwin dubren wrote:

It is interesting that someone in this group has the power to remove postings they find offensive. The entire discussion on Heirloom Apples quoted above has vanished. It includes a defense my position. Nothing like a little censorship.
Sherwin
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I still have the entire discussion. Steve
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snipped-for-privacy@ioa.com says...

Nothing further has appeared here.
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I still have the entire discussion too. Mt-newswatcher.
Bill
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snipped-for-privacy@snip.net says...

Me too. It's sitting on my hard drive, having been downloaded in its entirety up to this point.
The article Sherwin referred to hasn't made it here. ...which can be chalked up to the vagaries of USENET or something more sinister depending on one's preferences.
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I do too.
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On Sun, 10 May 2009 02:16:03 -0500, sherwin dubren

All of the messages show up on Google Groups. Other people cannot remove you messages. It is almost impossible to remove all copies of your own messages even when you send a rescind message immediately.
One person, Steve (I think) has his messages marked "do not archive" but they still show up on Google for 10 days.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
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says...

Let me see...
I doubt if any of the usual participants in this newsgroup would want to censor the thread.
While I disagree with you categorically and think there is no reasonable defense of using pesticides or herbicides, you have the right to say your piece, as do we all. The issues matter too much to silence the opposition.
There's at least 1 corporate entity cum 2 trick pony that might monitor for certain carefully picked hot-button (but true) key words and phrases and either complain or cancel. I know that if I were them, I would and that all the gardening newsgroups would be reasonable targets to monitor.
If it is censorship, I think, you can guess what words set off the alarm and who might be being censored... (Then again, it could just be that Motzarella.org server has a short latency period or you inadvertantly deleted the thread from your newsreader.)
I'll note that the opposite poles I mentioned use similar methodologies to inspire fear, silence dissent and make bad publicity or bad public go away. IMO, the difference between money and a gun is that a gun kills more quickly.
We can decide what to believe based on whatever makes us comfortable.
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Since there is more money in selling chemicals than an organic approach, you wouldn't think that Dr. Doo (childish, I know) would be censored. He be their boy.
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- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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In article <wildbilly-C52A12.07302510052009@c-61-68-245-

I figure the real answer is straight-forward, simple and easy. Messages go missing all the time. Everything from a keyboard slip through black hole could account for this..
That said:
A blanket cancel would be more ambiguous than a specific one. One could easily hide behind the ambiguity.
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But since everybody has the thread, 'cept doo, it would appear to be his screw-up (at least it pleases me to think so ;O)
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- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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IIRC paranoia is a side effect of insecticide poisoning. Huffing the lindane again, Doo?
http://chm.pops.int/Convention/Pressrelease/COP4Geneva8May2009/tabid/542 / language/en-US/Default.aspx
Governments unite to step-up reduction on global DDT reliance and add nine new chemicals under international treaty
Geneva, 8 May 2009 Nine persistent organic pollutants (POPs) were listed today under the Stockholm Convention. Over 160 Governments have just concluded a one-week conference with practical decisions that will strengthen a global effort to eradicate some of the most toxic chemicals known to humankind.
The Conference of the Parties (COP) has marked a historic week for the Stockholm Convention. For the first time, the Convention was amended to include nine new chemicals. Many of these are still widely used today as pesticides, flame retardants and in a number of other commercial uses. This meeting in Geneva has culminated in a momentous day for the Stockholm Convention. Its significance cannot be under-estimated. We now have a clear signal that Governments around the world take seriously the risks posed by such toxic chemicals. The tremendous impact of these substances on human health and the environment has been acknowledged today by adding nine new chemicals to the Convention. This shift reflects international concern on the need to reduce and eventually eliminate such substances throughout the global community, said UN Under-Secretary General and UNEP Executive, Achim Steiner. (cut) The Stockholm Convention targets certain hazardous pesticides and industrial chemicals that can kill people, damage the nervous and immune systems, cause cancer and reproductive disorders and interfere with normal infant and child development. The nine new chemicals now listed under the Stockholm Convention are: Alpha hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A; Beta hexachlorocyclohexane to Annex A; Although the intentional use of alpha- and beta-HCH as an insecticide was phased out years ago, these chemicals are still produced as an unintentional by-product of lindane. Approximately 6-10 tons of other isomers including alpha- and beta-HCH result from each ton of lindane produced. Hexabromodiphenyl ether and heptabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A; Tetrabromodiphenyl ether and pentabromodiphenyl ether to Annex A; Bromodiphenyl ether congeners are a group of brominated organic substances that inhibit or suppress combustion in organic material, which are used as additive flame retardants. Brominated diphenyl ethers are mainly manufactured as commercial mixtures where several isomers, congeners and small amounts of other substances occur. Chlordecone to Annex A; Chlordecone is a synthetic chlorinated organic compound, which was mainly used as an agricultural pesticide. It was first produced in 1951 and introduced commercially in 1958. Current use or production of the chemical is not reported. Hexabromobiphenyl to Annex A; Hexabromobiphenyl (HBB) is an industrial chemical that was used as a flame retardant, mainly in the 1970s. Based on existing data, HBB is no longer produced and is not used in new or existing products. Lindane to Annex A; Lindane was used as a broad-spectrum insecticide for seed and soil treatment, foliar applications, tree and wood treatment and against ectoparasites in both veterinary and human treatments. Lindane production has decreased rapidly in recent years and only a few countries still produce it. Pentachlorobenzene to Annex A and C; Pentachlorobenzene (PeCB) was used in PCB products, dyestuff carriers, as a fungicide, a flame retardant and a chemical intermediate such as the production of quintozene and it may still be used for this purpose. PeCB is also produced unintentionally during combustion in thermal and industrial processes. It appears as an impurity in products such as solvents or pesticides. Perfluorooctane sulfonic acid, its salts and perfluorooctane sulfonyl fluoride to Annex A or B; PFOS is both intentionally produced and an unintended degradation product of related anthropogenic chemicals. The current intentional use of PFOS is widespread and found in products such as in electric and electronic parts, fire fighting foam, photo imaging, hydraulic fluids and textiles. PFOS are still produced in several countries today. The 12 initial POPs covered by the Convention include nine pesticides (aldrin, chlordane, DDT, dieldrin, endrin, heptachlor, hexachlorobenzene, mirex and toxaphene); two industrial chemicals (PCBs as well as hexachlorobenzene, also used as a pesticide); and the unintentional by-products, most importantly dioxins and furans. Further information is available at http://www.pops.int or by emailing snipped-for-privacy@pops.int
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- Billy

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We just started a little orchard with heirlooms from Trees of Antiquity. It's amazing the varieties that fell by the wayside when "shipability" became the primary focus.
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Do you spray when the ground is around? Insecticides and soil, don't you just know?

Excellent, you do know how to read. "Rotenone is classified by the World Health Organization as moderately hazardous.[10] It is mildly toxic to humans and other mammals, but extremely toxic to insects and aquatic life including fish. This higher toxicity in fish and insects is due to the fact that the lipophilic rotenone is easily taken up through the gills or trachea, but not as easily through the skin or through the gastrointestinal tract." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotenone
Don't be confused by the label "organic pesticide" however; the use of Rotenone is prohibited under the California Organic Foods Act of 1990, and should continue to be prohibited under federal organic definitions -- unless chemical manufacturers are ultimately successful in their massive, well-financed attempts to convince the USDA to water down "organic" definitions.

Well, of course it's clay. You want something that really kills, don't you? Did you ever think to grow something else?

What is your solution Doo?

What do YOU want to spray Doo?

But your biocides end up on the ground Doo.

So you recognize your impact and rationalize it away. You're a class act Doo.

So, now you are offering advice on how to avoid the poisons that you put on our food. How reassuring.

There are lots of things that I am missing Doo, and one of the least of them is eating poisons.

No, because I'm too classy to call you shit.
You know how to be organic, but you are just too lazy or dumb to try. We only have one planet, ya know?
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- Billy
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Billy Goat,
I'm tired of conversing with idiots. Should have known it was a waste of time.
Sherwin
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