Dr. Schwarcz replies

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In response to all the chatter about Dr. Scharcz being on the payroll of the chemical companies, as well as his office, I sent him the comments from this forum and he replied with the following:
Thanks for forwarding me that nonsense. Nobody funds me....except McGill University . I do know where the CBI stuff comes from....a while ago CBI funded some summer scholarships for McGill students, a couple of whom ended up working in our office. That had nothing to do with anything....certainly not with my book. These "organic" people are paranoid and if a view doesn't fit into their "world view" they think that some conspiracy is afoot. They generally have a very poor scientific background and have no understanding of chemistry. They could use a little oil for their mental machinery. Organic oil if they so wish. regards
Dr. Joe Schwarcz
Steve can take pot shots at Dr. Schwarcz to try and malign his knowledge and connections, but he is only trying to divert people from understanding what this well educated man has to say. He is well recognized in the scientific community and well accepted by the public who buy his books and watch his regular TV show up in Canada. Too bad certain people have closed minds. Some may call that dogmatism but I tend to think it is fanaticism.
Sherwin
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snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net says...

ROTFL...
Ya know, the same can be said of you. Your adherence to a regime that is either going to fail you or fail your successors isn't wise. It is either pure lazines, selfishness, faith based or any combination of the three.
Frankly, I see you and the other poisoners, and within the label I include any agricultural or garden endeavour that cyclically uses *any* kind of poison in a systematic and habitual way, as terminally short sighted. You are engaged in a broadly based experiment in forced evolution which will release the horseman of "famine".
In evolutionary terms, there is no long term up-side to the use of pesticides and herbicides except to enrich the poisoners who are cognizant enough of their product limitations to switch modalities and continue hoovering up your money.
Of course, there is no long term up-side to us living in the numbers we do, except to swarm.
Nothing you or Joe can say will prevent the codling moth from developing resistance, as it already has in some areas. It -will- make its way to your trees.
Eventually all pathways for toxic control will close and then the pesticide dependant weakling species of plants will be decimated...
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@yahoo.com says...

........Well damn!!
I hit send instead of save.
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On Mon, 25 May 2009 01:55:14 -0500, sherwin dubren

I am neither paranoid nor a conspiracy theorist. Neither am I a liar.
Fact: Archived web pages for the Office of Science and Society list the industry group as a Financial supporter from 2003 until October 2007. "Nobody funds me" is a lie.
Fact: The good doctor states that "There is no available research that shows trace amounts are a problem or that alloxan builds up in the body." That's a lie. In reality Alloxan is a well-known and universally used agent for evoking experimental diabetes through its toxic effect on the B cellsof the Langerhans islets. "In our study, blood levels of alloxan in children with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus were investigated. The observations were made in 68 children aged 615 years and in a control group of 44 healthy children in the same age range. Alloxan levels were estimated spectrophotometrically. The mean level of alloxan in blood from children with insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus was 8.769.64 mgrg/ml and in blood from healthy children was 1.531.10 mgrg/ml. The difference was statistically significant (P<0.05). The metabolism of alloxan leads to the production of free superoxide radicals which, as is well known, injure cells and cause conditions conducive to the occurrence of diseases from autoimmunity. The results obtained suggest therefore that higher levels of alloxan in diabetic children are of significance in the onset of insulin-dependent diabetes mellitus."
Decide for your self.
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On Mon, 25 May 2009 01:55:14 -0500, sherwin dubren

I would like to see your letter to him, as well as his reply, full headers included on both, and I would like to see where he granted permission for you to post his reply on a public forum.
Charlie
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On Mon, 25 May 2009 12:56:32 -0500, Charlie wrote:

If that's not forthcoming in a day or two I'll write the good "doctor" and ask him myself.
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In article

In response to all the chatter about Dr. Scharcz being on the payroll of the chemical companies, as well as his office, I sent him the comments from this forum and he replied with the following:
Thanks for forwarding me that nonsense. Nobody funds me....except McGill University . I do know where the CBI stuff comes from....a while ago CBI funded some summer scholarships for McGill students, a couple of whom ended up working in our office. That had nothing to do with anything....certainly not with my book.
These "organic" people are paranoid and if a view doesn't fit into their "world view" they think that some conspiracy is afoot. They generally have a very poor scientific background and have no understanding of chemistry. They could use a little oil for their mental machinery. Organic oil if they so wish. regards - Dr. Joe Schwarcz
The phrase "These "organic" people", has such an air of hubris to it. Is he expressing contemp for America's first family, who just put in an organic garden, or is it reserved for some of Dr. Joe's fans (or potential fans) who are organic. I think that the statement above is not only disrespectful, but news worthy and should be forwarded to all the major newspapers, if this is indeed the content of his email to Doo.
To add that it was in response to a charge of duplicity, makes it seem even more self serving, which brings us back to where we begun. He, and his institution are funded by the most un-organic companies on the planet.
And who do we have to thank?
Our boy Doo ;O)
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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So we should probably do a follow up with Dr. Joe, let him deny that he wrote to Doo, and call off the dogs on the newspapers, probably. I haven't had this much fun since, I can't remember when ;O)
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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In the name of fairness, I wrote to Dr. Joe. Joe Schwarcz: snipped-for-privacy@mcgill.ca http://oss.mcgill.ca/contact.php
26 May, 2009
Professor Schwarcz, there is a debate, in the UseNet group rec.gardens.edible, over the use of herbicides and pesticides. A poster there, using the name Sherwin Dubren, claims to have purportedly received an email from you, which he posted on 25 May, 2009.
Path: news.sonic.net!nnrp0.nntp.sonic.net!199.245.68.22.MISMATCH!spool2.nntp.so nic.net!news-xfer.nntp.sonic.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!feeder.motzarel la.org!news.motzarella.org!news.eternal-september.org!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible Subject: Dr. Schwarcz replies Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 01:55:14 -0500 Organization: dopey/hfzvhjdp7 name and password (sherwindu/hsrwuuiew?) Lines: 31
Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: news.eternal-september.org U2FsdGVkX19xDDd8tHj01Vvk/mqGdZy0GRWzs2U+TMacU1fa4bRQ9V6wfWfgdWixcVx1COp+c 6j8u600lBo26hh07Phpti+i7ZA18t0Xxu3FRDkTlaBNFayo/5O6kPQyPOMBE0VyROv+thkDBq RF8w=X-Complaints-To: snipped-for-privacy@eternal-september.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 06:55:14 +0000 (UTC) X-Stationery: 0.4.8.14 X-Auth-Sender: U2FsdGVkX1/zdKjShTTbAq1zz9mNEyzx0QvojyxRpXkCancel-Lock: sha1:5ROm+5ASTLRQUvqA3qtYA2luF6UUser-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Windows/20090302) Xref: news.sonic.net rec.gardens.edible:125594
In response to all the chatter about Dr. Scharcz being on the payroll of the chemical companies, as well as his office, I sent him the comments from this forum and he replied with the following:
Thanks for forwarding me that nonsense. Nobody funds me....except McGill University . I do know where the CBI stuff comes from....a while ago CBI funded some summer scholarships for McGill students, a couple of whom ended up working in our office. That had nothing to do with anything....certainly not with my book. These "organic" people are paranoid and if a view doesn't fit into their "world view" they think that some conspiracy is afoot. They generally have a very poor scientific background and have no understanding of chemistry. They could use a little oil for their mental machinery. Organic oil if they so wish. regards
Dr. Joe Schwarcz
Steve can take pot shots at Dr. Schwarcz to try and malign his knowledge and connections, but he is only trying to divert people from understanding what this well educated man has to say. He is well recognized in the scientific community and well accepted by the public who buy his books and watch his regular TV show up in Canada. Too bad certain people have closed minds. Some may call that dogmatism but I tend to think it is fanaticism.
Sherwin
-------
Some of us would like to know if this accurately reflects your attitude about "organic" farming (in the contemporary sense of the word).
Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Bill Rose
--

I urge others of you to write to Dr. Joe as well.
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In article

So the good doctor responds.
--

Subject: RE: Organic
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 16:58:24 -0400
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wrote:

Stunning. I expected push back, but the profound dismissal, the outright disdain, of organic is remarkable even for one funded by the chemical industry. The disinformation, (for example ignoring the advancement in organic agriculture and instead suggesting that it's 100 years behind) is truly amazing. Obviously he has never heard of a little company named Earthbound. In one article he states that organic foods are only "marginally" more nutritious, in the next article he sites a 40% gain in antioxidants. "Pesticides and nitrates from fertilizer enter ground water with potential environmental and health consequences". Potential?! Doesn't McGill have internet service? Hasn't he ever looked at the Gulf of Mexico from above? Amazing. I think he's "marginally" pro-agrochemical.
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I'd disagree. He certainly wasn't as dismissive of organics as one would expect from his knee jerk reaction to Sherwin would have suggested.
In fact from what I have read so far, (and so far that reading on my part hsas not been anything more than a quick skim as I'm short of time) he even has some good things to say about organics.
His point of view is from the perspective of farmed produce but from the point of view of those of us who post here, we aren't farming for production. In our case, what he has to say about organics does in fact support the use of organics in a home enviroment - better taste, kinder to the soil and because plants respond to threat, better produce for a number of reasons.
The disinformation, (for example ignoring the advancement in

Yes, I did think that too and I do know of initiatives that he seems to have either glossed over or not known of.
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Yeah, I know, he didn't talk about the soil web of life and soil erosion. He seemed happy to get his lycopene from tasteless, long shelf-life price/benefit tomatoes, but we just got these papers and I'm sure that we will have a lot of fun with them. In any event, they don't address his dismissal of these "organic" people.
" Thanks for forwarding me that nonsense. Nobody funds me....except McGill University . I do know where the CBI stuff comes from....a while ago CBI funded some summer scholarships for McGill students, a couple of whom ended up working in our office. That had nothing to do with anything....certainly not with my book. These "organic" people are paranoid and if a view doesn't fit into their "world view" they think that some conspiracy is afoot. They generally have a very poor scientific background and have no understanding of chemistry. They could use a little oil for their mental machinery. Organic oil if they so wish." regards Dr. Joe Schwarcz This should be very informative for us.
--

- Billy
"For the first time in the history of the world, every human being
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wrote:

That should be very informative to "you people". ;-)
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I probably shouldn't but I can't resist. I'm responding to your post, Steve, but this is more for Mr. Rose.
I read some of Dr. S's response. He's got some valid points, imo. Organic is expensive, if you aren't growing your own. I'm organic as I think I can be, with the financial situation I have at this point. Organic manure, compost etc cost more than non-organic. Free range organic eggs cost over $4 a dozen where I live. I've been a vegetarian for 40 years (lol - damn - 40 years) and it's not as easy and it costs more, ime, to dine out, to live organically. To purchase the food that meets my morals, as it were. Whatever - my choice.
I used to make donations to PETA. I don't anymore. While I imagine there's a need for extremists, I wish there wasn't. I don't benefit from from being haraunged (pretty sure that's spelled wrong - sorry) and I hope that most people, gardeners especially can learn and evolve with kindness and good intentions, not by being badgered.
Mother Teresa said something to the effect of - Don't invite me to an anti-war rally. Invite me to a peace rally.
IMO, in your zeal, Mr. Rose, you are turning more people away from the very thing you want. You can't force people to see what you see - you can be a wonderful example. When you send out negative energy, more than just one person is affected.
Organic gardening, to me, is treating the earth and its inhabitants as I want to be treated. I won't curse the rabbits that are eating my zinnia seedlings. I will cut away the insect damage from the comfrey leaves I needed today for a dog with healing stitches. It's been awfully damp this Spring and many plants are showing the same damage.
Ah, but the blooms. And yes, I forgot the parlsey. I have in my scrambled egg most days. I need to learn how to make tabouli - I've got a thick 10 ft row of parsley. What a blessing, huh?
I suspect we gardeners have a lot in common. Do we really want to pick this newsgroup to engage in negativity? Make love not war?
Billy, you can sell your Stinging Nettle. I pay maybe $10 a lb? I really have no idea but it's probably no more than $20 a lb . It's good for the kidneys and incredibly nutritive. I give it to my elderly dog in tea form and add it to my tea as well.
Please consider, you wonderful organic proponents, to make our cause a noble one, a wonderful and joyous one.
My beer can is empty. I have finished my enhanced post. Good night and good gardening to you all.
Kate
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On Tue, 26 May 2009 21:56:40 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@notme.com wrote:

And to you, Kate. Extremists of almost any ilk can be counterproductive. I hope I'm not one of those, and I will remember your post as I proselytize.
That said, I _will_ speak out against extremists of the agro-chemical cabal without remorse and with little restraint. Disinformation is not in any of our best interest.
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wrote:

The last sentence reminded me of a phrase, think Mark Twain is the source, and it was something along the lines of "The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers".
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Kate, I think the quote that you are looking for is, "If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain
Either that or it was the quote from the documentary "Corporation", People who don't watch television are better informed than those who watch Fox News."
You call it extremism to refute lies and products that steal and kill. I call it necessity. I guess most advertising lies about it's products, but chemical fertilizers kill the very top soil that they need in order to function. The less top soil, the more chemical fertilizers are needed. They find their way to water ways and end up as dead zones off the coast where free protein used to be found as fish and shell fish. Chemical pesticides make food less nutritious by reducing flavonoids, poisoning embryos and young children, killing beneficial insects, and adding to the body burden of chemicals. Finally, chemical herbicides attack both embryos and young children, and encourage monocultures where even more pesticides are needed. When you deal with fools like Doo-Doo, it is like talking to a fog horn. There is no rationale. There is no thought. There is no empathy. And when you talk to the producers of these poisons, there is only greed. The truth is that they haven't erred. The truth is that they lied. If it is bad form to call a liar a liar, then I have bad form indeed.
Another bottle for this lady, please.
--

- Billy
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Thanks, Steve. May your garden grow well.
Kate
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This could be interesting.
Kudos to you and Billy for the research and the ball-busting you gave/are giving sherwindu. Fran hit on some excellant points about dr. shill's supposed response.
Charlie
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