Compost ingredients?

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Pat Meadows wrote:

Lacto-vegetarians eat milk and cheese, but not eggs. Ovo-vegetarians eat eggs but not milk and cheese. Lacto-ovo vegetarian is the same thing as vegetarian. Vegans [pronounced vee-gan], as you note, eat no dairy products or eggs.
Andrew
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Aaron Baugher wrote:

I once read of 'fruititists'. I think that's the word, but I've been unable to find it in a dictionary here. Practiced in some areas of India, the theory is that you don't eat anything which requires animal *or* plant to die. Allowable foods mentioned were milk, honey, nuts, fruits.

I wondered where eggs fit in, but if they're eating nuts, fruits and seeds, they should in theory be OK with unfertilized eggs.
Another way to categorize vegetarians is by motive. I see (1) ethical - believe it is morally wrong to use animals; (2) dietary - do not believe certain foods are healthy in a diet; (3) aesthetic - meats, seafoods or dairy do not appeal to them, or leave a bad taste or unsettled stomach after eating.
Of course even with the same motive, there are differences of opinion as to what should be excluded from a vegetarian diet.
--
Willondon

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Willondon said:

The act of farming is always detrimental to some animal. The 'murders' are more remote, though. The mice turned up (or crushed) in their nests, the groundhogs the farmer shoots, traps, or gasses, he deer hunted to protect the crops (extra permits are available to farmers and orchardists for taking deer) -- and so on. (What about all the animals killed/evicted in clearing the land of native vegetation for farming?)

Fruitarians. And aren't they killing all those potential baby trees (nuts)?
(Has anyone here read "Murder in the Kitchen" by Alan Watts?)
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:17:45 -0400, Willondon

There are at least two subsets of ethical vegetarians:
(1a.) those who believe it is wrong to use so much land to produce meat while any people in the world are starving.
It's true that in general you can produce non-meat protein with much less land but this does not account for marginal land suitable to grazing but not raising crops. On the whole, though, given modern meat production methods, it's true. We raise lots of grain and feed it to animals, getting less protein and calories back than if people had eaten the grains directly.
(1b.) those who don't object to killing animals in order to eat them (everything has to die sometime) but who do object to the extreme cruelties of modern factory farming.
Think of the poor damned chickens confined in tiny cages all their life! They're supposed to be running around in grass, catching bugs, having a social life, etc.
It's similar for other livestock, maybe even worse. I shudder with horror at the giant CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations) in which most pigs are now raised. They're fellow-mammals, they're intelligent, and we stick them in animal-concentration camps and wreak unspeakable cruelties on them before we kill and eat them.

Pat
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You've never looked an Irish Lord in the face! =:-O
The feds just did a survey on 600 pregnant Alaska Native women. They took hair samples and tested for Hg. (mercury) All of the women (who live in the bush and eat mostly fish) tested way below EPA levels for Hg.
Our mercury levels in Alaskan wild fish is .65 ppm. The EPA safe food level is 4 parts per million (ppm).
To start with: wild fish populations in Alaska are healthy. I don't know where you are, but our salmon (5 kinds), halibut, crab (4 kinds), scallops, clams (4 kinds), pollack, cod (3 kinds), oysters, mussles, and shrimp populations are doing fine. Just because you guys fished out your fisheries, we haven't. God knows that the canneries from Seattle tried, but Alaska got statehood in 1959 and got control of the fisheries before they succeded.
The by-catch (unwanted fish) that factory trawlers off coastal Alaska throw away every year could *feed the entire world* for one day. (Read that sentence again and think about it. Then write to your congressman.)
Factory trawlers need to be run off our seas. Tyson (Chicken) owns loads of those trawlers. They do mile-long trawls that clear-cut the ocean bottom. It's like clear-cutting the forest. Nothing survives, but the shareholders smile.
(A "trawl" is a weighted net that sinks to the ocean floor and catches everything there. A trawl net creates a kill-zone on the ocean floor.)
I live in a commercial fishing town. Most of my friends and neighbors are comemercial fishermen. I catch most of the fish I eat. What's your connection with the sea, Mike? Do you read stuff in the newpaper and believe it, or do you have a direct connection with the sea and your food?
Jan Homer, Alaska

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Jeezz you almost sound defensive. It wasn't like anyone was accusing you of eating all the fish...
A number of news agencies have recently begun reporting that populations of large fish such as tuna, mackarel, cod are at one percent (1%) of the levels from 50 years ago. These news agencies include CNN, Fox Cable News, and MSNBC. I did not write the articles, nor am I one of the scientists who participated or tabulated the data in these studies. I'm glad that the fish in Alaska are safe to eat, and alive and well. But the Alaskan coast represents a small portion of the world. And this study is talking about WORLD fish populations. Other countries do not take the care and restraint neccessary to converse and cultivate thier fish populations in order to preserve them. We are also talking about "wild" fish roaming the open ocean in vast schools, not fisheries. The world-wide population of people has tripled in the past 50 years. Advances in refrigeration, packing, preservation, and harvesting has allowed more fish to be caught, sold, and consumed by these higher concentrations of people. This and the increased belief by "land-lubbers" that seafood is health food has increased world-wide fish consumption exponentially...
And for the record I'm from Baltimore, MD. This is on the Chesapeake Bay, which has been fished long before Europeans people even discovered Alaska. The crustecean populations there are nearly decimated, though Chesapeake Bay crabs are renowed. The crabs and clams also have been found with toxic levels of mercury, lead, and arsenic. Fish from many areas of the Bay and the connecting rivers are considered unsafe to eat due to pollutants in the water. Much of the East Coast of the US was or is industrialized, and continue even with EPA standards to dump harmful substances in the water. In the past they dumped industrial wastes into the waters unabated. As I said I am glad that Alaska is doing fine, but never having been heavily industrialized, its easy to see why the waters in your area would continue to be safe and thriving. Unfortunately the rest of the states are not neccesarily in such good shape. And this isn't even taking into account other industrialized and/or developing nations that may or may not have any enviromental standards in place to protect thier waters, or conservation standards to protect thier fish populations...
(Jan

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Jan Flora wrote:

yummmy mooose :)

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Heh. It didn't work! The moose came through, stepped on my peas and kept going. At least she didn't stop to graze. I'm putting a fishnet fence up today. (She's down on the lake right now, eating the water lilies...)

If you know the rancher, you'll know how/where the animals were butchered. If you buy an animal from us, you pick out the one you want, live.
We butcher on our ranch, never more than two animals in a day. (It's a *lot* of work!) The SO drives near the steer he wants, while the animal is grazing. He stays in the pickup and shoots the animal in the forehead once with a .300 Savage that's had the point of the bullet cut off. (Better blunt impact -- kills instantly. The animal dies with grass in it's mouth and never hears the shot that kills it.) He discovered that if he stays in the pickup, the animals ignore him. If he gets out, they all come in for their (organic) barley, then you've got a bunch of milling animals. If a stranger gets out of the truck, the herd leaves. (They've learned that when strangers show up, someone is going to die...) Most of our customers take everything but the hide and the moo. Some even take the hooves, to make a gelatin-like soup. We have lots of ethnic Russian neighbors. When customers don't want the tongue, kidneys, liver or heart, we give those to elders in the neighborhood who enjoy them.
We wait until there's snow on the ground, to have a clean place to work out on the meadow. The weather is also cool enough then to hang the carcass in our meat house for a couple of days, before it goes down to the local butcher. (It's easier to split a carcass after it's hung for awhile.) The butcher hangs the sides in his cooler at a certain temp (?) for up to 10 days, then breaks the carcass down into whatever cuts the customer has specified. (One of the questions on the "cut sheet" is "how many teenagers are you feeding?" because Tom will make the burger packages bigger, according to the teenage count in a household. He also asks how much and what kind of fat you want in the burger.)
PBS is going to run a show on friday here that was produced by Hal Cannon. It's about cowboys. If I know Hal, he'll have stuff in there about a cowboy's relationship to the land and to the animals. (And I do know Hal. Met him at the Cowboy Poetry Gathering in Elko, NV a few years ago.) Catch that show, if you can. It might explain a lot.
Jan
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I'm not trying to convince you to eat beef; just trying to let you know that we aren't all heartless corporate slash & burn, overgrazing, phone book, dead chicken & sheep "by-product" feeding monsters. (Yes, they feed old phone books to cattle now. Isn't that special? =:-O Ruminants can digest cellulose, but you won't catch me feeding cardboard or phone books...)
Some folks have been on the land for generations, raising food for people to eat. If they didn't care for the land and the critters, they would have starved out and had to move to the cities. (The Depression ran my FIL's family into sharecropping in Texas. They lost their ranch to the bank. Dad came here to Alaska, homesteaded and built this place into a ranch in 1951. My MIL's ranch has the 5th generation on the ground now. Her great-grandmother homesteaded the place in the 1860's in Middle Park, Colorado. I'm waiting right now for a show about John Wesley Powell going "Down the Colorado" to come on PBS. Janice's great-uncle, Jack Sumner, was Powell's guide on that trip. Janice's home ranch is on the headwaters of the Colorado.)
Jan
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On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:02:26 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@xyz.net (Jan Flora) wrote:

program fascinating. I live within 200 miles of the canyon...now if we could get rid of those helicopters....
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I respect your decision to not eat meat. In America, that's a conscious choice that takes some courage, as I'm sure people give you a hard time about it sometimes. In too much of the world, folks eat anything that's moving slower than they are. Americans have *no idea* how fortunate they are to have the choice of what to eat, unless they've travelled or worked in the 3rd world.
The part I left out of my whole narrative is that I refuse to work killing our steers. I did it once, when the SO was out of town and a guy was getting married. He was Russian. He prayed, shot the animal, prayed, bled the animal, I swung the steer onto clean grass with the front end loader and left. Came back an hour later, weighed the quarters of beef and took the money. I _hate_ the smell of blood and _hate_ to see my animals die. At least my Russian neighbors know that God is watching, so they treat the animals with respect and say the proper prayers as they go.
I'll help the cows be born, nurse them when they're sick, stay up all night in a blizzard tending them, feed them in blizzards or bitter cold, track them through the woods when they decide to calve out where God lost her shoes, put up with raging hay fever while I'm putting up the hay it takes to feed them all winter, ride unbroke horses to drive them down to the grazing lease and back home again, chop holes in the creek ice all winter so they have water, fix *miles* of fence to keep them out of mischief, but I *will not* be a party to killing them. I've been here nine years and still won't help butcher. I'll do every stinking, rotton, unthankful job there is on this ranch, but I will not kill the steers. (But I'll kill one who's dying.)
That said, I have to kill my old saddle horse pretty soon, as she's crippled with navicular syndrome (her front feet are shot and it's painful). It's time. I can do that. I'll be doing Red a kindness to kill her. I shot my 14 y/o dog last summer. It was time. She was suffering. I see no reason to pay someone to do that for me. It doesn't make it any easier.
I grew up in San Francisco, where water comes out of the faucet and meat comes in little packages from Safeway. I'm not in Kansas anymore, Toto.
I'm just grateful to have landed with people who do this stuff right.
Jan
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snipped-for-privacy@xyz.net (Jan Flora) wrote:

An utterly fascinating account that jumps off the page and right into the hearts of us tenderfeet. Thanks for sharing that. :)
Phae
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Andrew McMichael said:

Normally people don't have their compost 'cooking' enough to bury meat and bone scraps in without risking serious odor or vermin problems.
If I have a hot batch that is really cooking I can throw in shrimp peelings, fish bones, dead birds and mice and other stuff that is usually 'not allowed' in the compost guides. Once we even splurged on lobsters for the family and buried the leftovers in the middle of a really hot batch. No smell, and the shells all broke down. The only thing we recognized when sifting the compost later were the tips of the biggest claws.
I can email some information on hot, batch composting (written originally by an professional compost man) to those who are interested.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI

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Oooooohhhhh, don't put any more oil, fat or meat trimmings into the compost pile. It attracts animals (mice, rats, racoons etc...) and doesn't break down. The rest of your kitchen scraps are okay to place in the compost: eggshells, coffee grinds, tea bags, vegetable and fruit trimmings. Other items that can be added to the compost are black/white newspaper (none of those color advestising pages), grass clippings, pine needles, non-diseased yard trimmings.
I avoid putting weeds or rotten vegetables such as tomatoes in my compost after learning the hard way. My compost doesn't get hot enough to kill off the weed seeds so now I have tomatoes and purslane growing wherever I put the compost in my garden - I just love weeding (she said sarcastically). I've also added small amounts of bone meal and blood meal to my compost piles to help speed up the composting process. We also have a guinea pig so the used bedding gets placed into the compost pile. We used to compost our rabbit droppings too but we gave the rabbit back to the pet store because my kids weren't taking very good care of it.
Of course, I'm no expert. These are just some tips that seem to work for me.
Take care, Lynn Smythe e-mail: snipped-for-privacy@adelphia.net website: http://users.adelphia.net/~lynnsmythe

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Lynn Smythe wrote:

Also paper towels, paper napkins, and dryer lint. My compost gets pretty hot, so I'm not al that worried about the other stuff.
Andrew
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Lynn Smythe wrote:

That conflicts with my experience and research. Fats, meats and so on do so break down and if you have a modestly hot pile (113-130 deg F) no animal is going to be pawing through it.
The link below goes into considerably more detail on the matter.
http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html
Bill
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Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
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We've had a great worm bin for about 7 or 8 years in our backyard. When we recently remodeled the kitchen, it turned out that composting had saved us a bunch of money! The plumber looked at our garbage disposal and the pipes attached to it and was amazed that we hadn't had a major breakdown, because the pipe was really too small to handle the job. He said there was no way the disposal should have lasted 25 years, as it had.
The worm bin also has provided a great start for new planting gardens that I've been adding to my backyard each year. We started out with a yard that was just a big rectangle of bad lawn. Now we have a great veggie garden, a raspberry patch, a rose garden, etc. I hope to eventually have a back yard that is more garden than lawn.
I put everything in the compost bin except fats and meat. I also get my husband to put a layer of grass clippings in a couple of times during the summer. (We usually compost the grass in a separate pile from the worm bin, but it "freshens up" the worm bin to add grass from time to time.)
wrote

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Andrew McMichael wrote:

No. Although there may be social reasons for doing so, it just isn't true from the standpoint of biology IF you are running a well-managed hot process compost pile. If you are running a cold process compost pile you might (might) have a problem with vermin and pets.
http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html
Bill
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FDR wrote:

What then WOULD you put in a manure pile?
If you run a hot pile and give the finished compost a one year aging period there are NO disease risks higher than background rates.
http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html
Not my site ... but I consider it authoritative on the subject.
Bill
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