Compost ingredients?

[Jan Flora]

I respect your decision to not eat meat. In America, that's a conscious choice that takes some courage, as I'm sure people give you a hard time about it sometimes. In too much of the world, folks eat anything that's moving slower than they are. Americans have *no idea* how fortunate they are to have the choice of what to eat, unless they've travelled or worked in the 3rd world.

The part I left out of my whole narrative is that I refuse to work killing our steers. I did it once, when the SO was out of town and a guy was getting married. He was Russian. He prayed, shot the animal, prayed, bled the animal, I swung the steer onto clean grass with the front end loader and left. Came back an hour later, weighed the quarters of beef and took the money. I _hate_ the smell of blood and _hate_ to see my animals die. At least my Russian neighbors know that God is watching, so they treat the animals with respect and say the proper prayers as they go.

I'll help the cows be born, nurse them when they're sick, stay up all night in a blizzard tending them, feed them in blizzards or bitter cold, track them through the woods when they decide to calve out where God lost her shoes, put up with raging hay fever while I'm putting up the hay it takes to feed them all winter, ride unbroke horses to drive them down to the grazing lease and back home again, chop holes in the creek ice all winter so they have water, fix *miles* of fence to keep them out of mischief, but I

*will not* be a party to killing them. I've been here nine years and still won't help butcher. I'll do every stinking, rotton, unthankful job there is on this ranch, but I will not kill the steers. (But I'll kill one who's dying.)

That said, I have to kill my old saddle horse pretty soon, as she's crippled with navicular syndrome (her front feet are shot and it's painful). It's time. I can do that. I'll be doing Red a kindness to kill her. I shot my 14 y/o dog last summer. It was time. She was suffering. I see no reason to pay someone to do that for me. It doesn't make it any easier.

I grew up in San Francisco, where water comes out of the faucet and meat comes in little packages from Safeway. I'm not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

I'm just grateful to have landed with people who do this stuff right.

Jan

[<roz]

I find a lot of hypocrisy with the vegetarians. My friend won't eat eggs, but she eats cheese. She won't eat meat but she sure wears leather! She is hindu and supposedly devout, but she had an exterminator kill all the moles in her yard. I could go on and on, and I bet a lot of you could, too. roz

[Phaedrine Stonebridge]

An utterly fascinating account that jumps off the page and right into the hearts of us tenderfeet. Thanks for sharing that. :)

Phae

[Tom Jaszewski]

None of the above, far too much pasta and olive oil, but I'm working on it....for now it's live food only!

[Willondon]

I once read of 'fruititists'. I think that's the word, but I've been unable to find it in a dictionary here. Practiced in some areas of India, the theory is that you don't eat anything which requires animal *or* plant to die. Allowable foods mentioned were milk, honey, nuts, fruits.

I wondered where eggs fit in, but if they're eating nuts, fruits and seeds, they should in theory be OK with unfertilized eggs.

Another way to categorize vegetarians is by motive. I see (1) ethical - believe it is morally wrong to use animals; (2) dietary - do not believe certain foods are healthy in a diet; (3) aesthetic - meats, seafoods or dairy do not appeal to them, or leave a bad taste or unsettled stomach after eating.

Of course even with the same motive, there are differences of opinion as to what should be excluded from a vegetarian diet.

[Pat Kiewicz]

The act of farming is always detrimental to some animal. The 'murders' are more remote, though. The mice turned up (or crushed) in their nests, the groundhogs the farmer shoots, traps, or gasses, he deer hunted to protect the crops (extra permits are available to farmers and orchardists for taking deer) -- and so on. (What about all the animals killed/evicted in clearing the land of native vegetation for farming?)

And aren't they killing all those potential baby trees (nuts)?

(Has anyone here read "Murder in the Kitchen" by Alan Watts?)

[Pat Meadows]

There are at least two subsets of ethical vegetarians:

(1a.) those who believe it is wrong to use so much land to produce meat while any people in the world are starving.

It's true that in general you can produce non-meat protein with much less land but this does not account for marginal land suitable to grazing but not raising crops. On the whole, though, given modern meat production methods, it's true. We raise lots of grain and feed it to animals, getting less protein and calories back than if people had eaten the grains directly.

(1b.) those who don't object to killing animals in order to eat them (everything has to die sometime) but who do object to the extreme cruelties of modern factory farming.

Think of the poor damned chickens confined in tiny cages all their life! They're supposed to be running around in grass, catching bugs, having a social life, etc.

It's similar for other livestock, maybe even worse. I shudder with horror at the giant CAFOs (Concentrated Animal Feeding Operations) in which most pigs are now raised. They're fellow-mammals, they're intelligent, and we stick them in animal-concentration camps and wreak unspeakable cruelties on them before we kill and eat them.

Pat

[simy1]

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

[Tom Jaszewski]

OK Roz I won't emulate you and jump to outrageous conclusions....

[B.Server]

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol". Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?

[Mike Stevenson]

For one stomach acid rarely leaves the stomach. When it does its due to disorders of the digestive tract such as acid reflux disease. Stomach acid does not pass into the small and large intestines where these bacteria live. As to the PH of alcohol HE did not establish it. Ph tests do, you can visit a number of websites if you like and see the Phs for things such as grain alchohol and wine and find that they tend to be very low, a good quality Syrah has a Ph of 3.53 as published on the makers website. A good Merlot has a similar pH of 3.52. Wines contain tannins, or Tartaric ACID. Coffee contains tannins, as does tea. Alcohols made from grains (including beer) contains some levels of tannin, and other acidic compounds.

[simy1]

I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5. Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer (probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest, because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of their acidity.

[simy1]

It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are

1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent 2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact 3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12 4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and turning into B12 sources for us

Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.

[simy1]

PS. If you look at the original post, it say "One hypothesis is...". Is english your second language?

[Nick Maclaren]

Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in the context of the digestive tract?

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).

But perhaps it was some other [e-mail] that posted that.

And, yes, it was the pseudo-science that coffee and alcohol have a low pH and it is that aspect of them that disturbs our gut flora that I was referring to. As I said, it goes back a long time (decades) and was known to be nonsense when it was perpetrated.

Regards, Nick Maclaren.

[Nick Maclaren]

In article , [e-mail] (simy1) writes: |> > |> > Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in |> > the context of the digestive tract? |> > |> > The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate |> > an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). |> |> I see what you are saying. Yes, the hypothesis that it is the acidity |> has not been proven. It could be anything. On that you are right. Or, |> if I nderstand it, you were objecting to my second post and not first.

Correct.

But it is so far from not having been proven that it is known to be incorrect. It was even when I first saw it, some decades back.

Not merely does neither have a low pH (and alcohol doesn't really have one, as such), most of the reasons for their effects on gut flora are known, and it isn't their alkalinity or acidity.

Alcohol (specifically ethanol) has a direct effect on most organisms and, at a sufficient level, is a very effective bacteriostat. I can't remember if the same is true for caffeine, but it is certainly true for tannins.

There is an indirect effect that, in some people, both alcohol and caffeine stimulate the production of acid in the stomach, but the same applies to many other foods.

Regards, Nick Maclaren.

[B.Server]

Yes. So how it is that the GI tract is routinely capable of neutralizing the very strong acid HCl before it enters the small intestine but incapable of neutralizing the much weaker organic acids in foods and beverages? Why is it that I should worry about coffee and "alcohol" but not worry about the much more strongly acidic fresh fruits, juices, and condiments? Lemonade anyone? Vinagrette? Chipotles en escabeche'?

As another poster noted, my point is that alcohol (ethanol) DOES NOT HAVE A pH. Consequently, neither I nor you nor the OP will find "grain alcohol" to have a low pH.

The pH of wine is not a property of its alcohol content. The grapes were acidic before picking or fermenting. Should one forgo grapes as well? Tannins are not related to tartaric acid. Tannins are very easily and strongly bound to proteins and as such are probably not very available to dissociate. Unless they do, they too, will have no pH. Once dissociated, they will seize almost any available protein once again become unavailable. They are present in most fruit skins. Must we peel our grapes?

As to the various claims regarding B-12 producing populations in the human gut, I don't know but I doubt it. It has been too many years since I studied anything related. (I do recall that the technology to measure B12 has become more sophisticated and accurate )

What makes me skeptical is that when one confects a mixture of improbable, unlikely, and plainly erroneous material as the scaffolding on which to build a theory of nutrition, its difficult to admire the soaring ediface while ignoring the rotten foundation, so to speak. If I want to acquire B12 in my diet "naturally", it will be most easily obtained from animal protein or milk products. If one chooses a more limited diet, then "artificial, chemical, manufactured" supplements will help the "natural, organic, whole" diet.

By the by, last night's Talisker on the rocks had a pH (measured on a really cheap meter, not a lab instrument) of 8+. No doubt due to the fact that our local water has a pH in the 7.9-8.5 vicinity, depending on time of year. So, say 6 orders of magnitude less "acidic" than my stomach.

[<roz]

whatever.....

[namford]

Hi, I would really like to get hold of some of this Vegetarian Suppor Formula (Red Star T-6635+), but I live in the UK and can only find i available in America. Does anyone know where I can get this in the U (or a site that will send it to the UK without charging a forune)?

I'd be really grateful if anyone can help me :o)

Thanks very much, Natalie

- namfor

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