Compost ingredients?

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OK Roz I won't emulate you and jump to outrageous conclusions....
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whatever.....
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On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher

No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of meat.
This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment, mostly.
Pat
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Pat Meadows wrote:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get their vitamin B12.
Bob
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zxcvbob wrote:

Most get it from all the insects in their food. I doubt most vegetarians realize how much insect material is allowed in common foods like peanut butter and bread. And then there are all the poor insects that these savage vegetarians devour alive in their organic produce.
The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for pernicious anemia.
Lorenzo L. Love http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove
A people living under the perpetual menace of war and invasion is very easy to govern. It demands no social reforms. It does not haggle over expenditures on armaments and military equipment. It pays without discussion, it ruins itself, and that is an excellent thing for the syndicates of financiers and manufacturers for whom patriotic terrors are an abundant source of gain. Anatole France
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rec.gardens.edible:

What foods provide vitamin B12?
Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal foods including fish, milk and milk products, eggs, meat, and poultry. Fortified breakfast cereals are an excellent source of vitamin B12 and a particularly valuable source for vegetarians. -- Gardening Zones Canada Zone 5a United States Zone 3a Near Ottawa, Ontario
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:17:00 -0400, Jim Carter

See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable
------------------------------------------------------- Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12
A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12.
<snip>
The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.
Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. We recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.
Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12-fortified soy milk, vitamin B12-fortified meat analogues (food made from wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry or fish), and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements which do not contain animal products.
Vegans who choose to use a vitamin B12 supplement, either as a single supplement or in a multi-vitamin should use supplements at least several times a week. Even though a supplement may contain many times the recom-mended level of vitamin B12, when vitamin B12 intake is high, not as much appears to be absorbed. This means in order to meet your needs, you should take the vitamin several times a week.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat
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On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob

B-12 supplements are one source.
I think tempeh and a few other non-animal foods have B12, but I'm not sure.
Pat
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snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com (simy1) wrote:
wrote:

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems. (I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.
Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look it up.
Jan
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According to the http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm B-12 is made in the large intestines of humans. It is also sopposedly unavailable to the body there becuase the large intestine cannot absorb B-12 into the bloodstream there. One would assume composting humanure would make this B-12 available to a person...
wrote:

to
vegetarians get

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snipped-for-privacy@xyz.net (Jan Flora) wrote in message

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.
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On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com (simy1) wrote:

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol". Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?
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For one stomach acid rarely leaves the stomach. When it does its due to disorders of the digestive tract such as acid reflux disease. Stomach acid does not pass into the small and large intestines where these bacteria live. As to the PH of alcohol HE did not establish it. Ph tests do, you can visit a number of websites if you like and see the Phs for things such as grain alchohol and wine and find that they tend to be very low, a good quality Syrah has a Ph of 3.53 as published on the makers website. A good Merlot has a similar pH of 3.52. Wines contain tannins, or Tartaric ACID. Coffee contains tannins, as does tea. Alcohols made from grains (including beer) contains some levels of tannin, and other acidic compounds.
pills.

systems.
you
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On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:51:33 GMT, "Mike Stevenson"

Yes. So how it is that the GI tract is routinely capable of neutralizing the very strong acid HCl before it enters the small intestine but incapable of neutralizing the much weaker organic acids in foods and beverages? Why is it that I should worry about coffee and "alcohol" but not worry about the much more strongly acidic fresh fruits, juices, and condiments? Lemonade anyone? Vinagrette? Chipotles en escabeche'?
As another poster noted, my point is that alcohol (ethanol) DOES NOT HAVE A pH. Consequently, neither I nor you nor the OP will find "grain alcohol" to have a low pH.
The pH of wine is not a property of its alcohol content. The grapes were acidic before picking or fermenting. Should one forgo grapes as well? Tannins are not related to tartaric acid. Tannins are very easily and strongly bound to proteins and as such are probably not very available to dissociate. Unless they do, they too, will have no pH. Once dissociated, they will seize almost any available protein once again become unavailable. They are present in most fruit skins. Must we peel our grapes?
As to the various claims regarding B-12 producing populations in the human gut, I don't know but I doubt it. It has been too many years since I studied anything related. (I do recall that the technology to measure B12 has become more sophisticated and accurate )
What makes me skeptical is that when one confects a mixture of improbable, unlikely, and plainly erroneous material as the scaffolding on which to build a theory of nutrition, its difficult to admire the soaring ediface while ignoring the rotten foundation, so to speak. If I want to acquire B12 in my diet "naturally", it will be most easily obtained from animal protein or milk products. If one chooses a more limited diet, then "artificial, chemical, manufactured" supplements will help the "natural, organic, whole" diet.
By the by, last night's Talisker on the rocks had a pH (measured on a really cheap meter, not a lab instrument) of 8+. No doubt due to the fact that our local water has a pH in the 7.9-8.5 vicinity, depending on time of year. So, say 6 orders of magnitude less "acidic" than my stomach.
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I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5. Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer (probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest, because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of their acidity.
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snipped-for-privacy@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message

It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are
1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent 2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact 3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12 4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and turning into B12 sources for us
Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.
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snipped-for-privacy@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message

PS. If you look at the original post, it say "One hypothesis is...". Is english your second language?
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snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com (simy1) writes: |> snipped-for-privacy@cus.cam.ac.uk (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message that posted that.
And, yes, it was the pseudo-science that coffee and alcohol have a low pH and it is that aspect of them that disturbs our gut flora that I was referring to. As I said, it goes back a long time (decades) and was known to be nonsense when it was perpetrated.
Regards, Nick Maclaren.
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snipped-for-privacy@my-deja.com (simy1) writes: |> > |> > Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in |> > the context of the digestive tract? |> > |> > The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate |> > an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). |> |> I see what you are saying. Yes, the hypothesis that it is the acidity |> has not been proven. It could be anything. On that you are right. Or, |> if I nderstand it, you were objecting to my second post and not first.
Correct.
But it is so far from not having been proven that it is known to be incorrect. It was even when I first saw it, some decades back.
Not merely does neither have a low pH (and alcohol doesn't really have one, as such), most of the reasons for their effects on gut flora are known, and it isn't their alkalinity or acidity.
Alcohol (specifically ethanol) has a direct effect on most organisms and, at a sufficient level, is a very effective bacteriostat. I can't remember if the same is true for caffeine, but it is certainly true for tannins.
There is an indirect effect that, in some people, both alcohol and caffeine stimulate the production of acid in the stomach, but the same applies to many other foods.
Regards, Nick Maclaren.
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Pat Meadows wrote:

Hi, I would really like to get hold of some of this Vegetarian Suppor Formula (Red Star T-6635+), but I live in the UK and can only find i available in America. Does anyone know where I can get this in the U (or a site that will send it to the UK without charging a forune)?
I'd be really grateful if anyone can help me :o)
Thanks very much, Natalie - namfor ----------------------------------------------------------------------- posted via www.GardenBanter.co.uk
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