On Thu, 20 Sep 2007 20:30:13 -0500, Charlie wrote:
Actually Charlie, we may have more in common than you might imagine.
I think that's a good thing, and hope you would, too.
A significant effect of the current administration has been the
creation of a culture of hate. I wish we could avoid it in a gardening
Yep, you kinda get feelings from/for people, and what they post. I
have had "that feeling' about ya for awhile. We'll play about a bit,
And keep in mind the usenet thing. ;-)
For what it is worth to you and all, I am not Bill's defender. He can
handle that quite well on his own. I think I need him defending me at
times, when I have me arse hanging out a bit too far in the breeze.
Bill is my friend, another old warrior with more experience than I will
ever have. Perhaps a Medicine Man.
Is it a culture of hate or a culture of anger? Unity through anger
and the resulting solidarity is perhaps a good thing? I have no use
for, and have been misunderstood perhaps, nearly ALL politicos in the
u$ now. I can only think of a handful of sens and reps that deserve
the air they breathe. Our prez choices will not even bring me out to
make my mark. None of the above.
All I know is that things are broken, and most days I fear broken
beyond repair and we reach out to those that are like-minded. We speak
out in whatever place we can. The tazing of the kid at The U of Fla
this week was meant to send a message to this country, one that we hear
all the time, on group and IRL........shut yer damn mouth or you will
be dealt with.
How can we avoid it in this group? I agree, but folks are tense and
everyone is feeling the pressure. Look at all the arguments that are
breaking out. I am as guilty as any about lashing out and poking
ignorance (as I percieve ignorance) in the eye with a stick. What right
do I have to do that? None, really, but this is Usenet......one of the
last frontiers, and one that may not be here much longer, given the
hellbent desire for turning this country into a surveillance society,
much like the Brits have had forced upon them.
Anyways, I rant on.....a bit too much java and all...
Sorry, I cannot resist!
"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in
moral philosophy: that is the search for a superior moral justification
As usual Charlie, you take my breath away. My god you are well read.
Well done. High fives all around.
I never read much until recently, when it became apparent to me that no
matter how clever I thought I was, I was pretty ignorant. I've thrown a
lot of energy at that problem in the last few year in an attempt to
clear that up but I usually find myself drifting into empirical
information and not so much philosophical stuff but you have such a
breadth across the board as to be truly amazing.
So what worked out this year for you? What are you going to plant next
year and what are you going to leave out?
For myself, I think I have worked out a crop rotation for my northern
exposer hill. The up-shot is more beans and less corn. I'll expand my
medicinals and the "Lovey-poo" wants more roots, especially parsnips and
This was a really crumby year here in Northern California. In the bad
old days we may have starved because everything is coming in so late. It
was great living weather and really bad gardening weather. We only
reached 100 F once.
The heat came on at the beginning of the grape harvest but it collasped
after about three weeks. About 60% of the grapes are harvested and some
of the grapes are going backwards in their sugar content. What looked
like a short season, suddenly looks longer, with more over time. Good
for me because my dentist found an European vacation in my mouth even
though that bastard Bush took us from 78 cents to the Euro to $1.40.
Wonder why the stock market is going up? It's because the dollar is
going down. It takes more dollars to buy the same thing.
The Farm Bill of course is a disaster. People are getting fat because
the government subsidizes cheap carbs and hydrocarbons (oil) instead of
cheap vegetables but then vegetables don't need so much Middle East oil
to make them grow.
Wishing you the best. Don't worry about the little squabbles here. Just
get yourself better.
Your friend and admirer,
Well now, hmmmmmm.......thank you, but I truly ain't that bright, my
friend. Like you discovered, we are none of us quite as clever as we
think we are. The beginning of wisdom or something like that. :-)
Tell you what. I'll post this reply up in the next couple of days in
it's own thread. I've been thinking about it some already....good time
to start planning.
Lovey has me in harness *and* chains for the next twenty-four or so.
The damned dog started things off by barfing across two rooms of carpet
yesterday, and you know, as long as you are cleaning those messes up,
you might as well do the whole damned house, eh?
Number One Grandson's other papa (that is his name for the Opas) is
coming for lunch tomorrow, along with both boy's families. That's
cool. Annii's dad is a good head, been round a few of the same blocks
as you and I. Doin' a pork loin on the grill, tater salad (I
hope.....I'm like nutty about tater salad) and I dont know what else
yet. Good times, good food.
Yeah, no s**t......the dollar is taking it on the chin and a few things
are developing overseas, and in the mid-east (not the war things) that
make it look worse. Funny doings in the gold markets too, but I am no
economist and have no money, It is just a good indicator of which way
to run. Gives me something else to be paranoid about.
GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.........says Bingo the philosopher dog on that issue.
Workin' on it, my friend. Today was a good day.
The same Billy, the same.
Have a good weekend and get some rest, old chap.
"God, grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell
Billy has no point other than to name-call, berate and rant. I said
nothing about supporting anyone but the food supply in this country
(in this thread), and I haven't said I support Bush at all or said
that I hate this country (I love my country, far more than he does, as
has been demonstrated in all of his politically slanted posts since
he's started posting in these newsgroups) and he continues to get
even more vile in his postings.
Catered to my postings - as I have tolerated his. Now he's on the
attack for no reason at all. He's now come out as the troll he truly
This is simply more name-calling, Ann, and false. I find what you call
ranting, informative. Now......what do we do with that?
You cannot even begin to make that determination. He has demonstrated
a love and passion for what this country was supposed to be all
about....you do know what it was about way back when.......at least
what it was supposed to be about....Howard Zinn ceratinly gave me a
different set of facts than I used to carry about.
His "politically slanted" posts show his desire for equality for all.
I don't understand this line.
Another insult and name calling.
You have stated that you don't get involved in the political
discussions. Don't cover your butt by calling troll. You could have
let it go.
What are you, Billy's defender? I say bullshit to both of you. I've
let it go, now you're wading into it. I have it from someone I know
and love dearly that you are for real - I accepted that assessment.
Now live up to her belief of you and let it go, too. It's none of
Hell yeah I am for real, Ann, though apparently not your requirement
I'm disappointed that you would try that line of shit on me, Ann. I
grew up with that crap and got over it long ago. I'll spare you the
vulgar, vile reply that instantly came to mind, the result of years of
You are right, you are none of my business.
"Wherefore, since nothing but blows will do, for God's sake, let us
come to a final separation." ~ Thomas Paine
Do you even know why I am disappointed? You ever heard of that
conditional love thingie?
I'm disappointed that you expect me to live up to your, and your
friend's, assessment and expectations. When I didn't, you became angry
and withdrew your love. Conditional.
I am diasappointed that you couldn't accept me for whatever and whoever
I am, warts and all. I'm disappointed, though not surprised, that you
were discussing me with someone else offgroup. Your friend broke trust
with me. One should rely upon one's own assessments and not use
someone else's as a weapon, trying to threaten or influence my behavior
towards you. I am immune to that, Ann. I have much experience with
that. I also respect, and expect, off-group privacy. Should have
known better. Actually, I did, yet I overrode my own better judgement.
So, our mutual disappointment is the same, yet different.
"The language of friendship is not words but meanings."
~Henry David Thoreau
I don't expect anything but to be respected and respectful. I don't
like the politics you two (you and Billy) constantly drag into these
groups. I really do try to avoid them but I react sometimes. That's
me. I am onboard with so many of the things you believe in. I just
don't like conservative bashing. Because that's where I fall on the
political spectrum, conservative with many 'liberal' beliefs.
had nothing whatsoever to do with this current situation and took
place months ago. I've always been wary of the two of you - I did
think you were for real, but truly thought the other (Billy) was
trolling for reaction because he kept digging at controversy. He got
the reactions he wanted from me. You jumped in in his defense -
something if he were a 'real' person he wouldn't need. Let him fight
his own battles.
Same to you, Charlie, and remember, I'm a gardener on a gardening
group first and foremost. I'm not looking for a political fight, that
teaches nothing to no one. We need to exchange ideas and thoughts,
not toss barbs at one another just to get a reaction.
I wasn't trying to "just get a reaction".
It was Mark Twain who said, 'In our country, we have those three
unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience,
and the prudence never to practice either.'
Seems appropriate, somehow. What I said in my previous post stands.
You can tell your friend to be wary of me too. I would appreciate your
keeping what you learned from her about me to yourself and that she do
the same. The personal information I unwisely passed on I had trusted
to not be spoken of with any other than me, or that even I never be
spoken of or discussed. I didn't choose to share that with you, at
least yet, and yet here we are. We'll just leave it at this and you
can let her know that what was shared with me is safe and has not and
will not be ever spoken of.
Unfortunately this gives ya'll a certain amount of power over me,
though many would trivialize this. I'll not make that mistake again.
Thanks for the heads up and the reminder.
You may want to stop reading my posts, for I am sure that at some point
I will offend you again. You can rest assured that none of my remarks
shall be directed towards you or anything you have posted.
Your turn, for your last word.
Je suis fini avec toi
Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of
the forest and the outlaw. ~Henry David Thoreau
sordid. It was neither, and as I said, had nothing to do with this
situation. Get over it. I asked if you were real, she said you were.
That's the extent of it. You really weren't our topic of
conversation, it was the state of wreck.gardens and the tone and
tenor. See, there are real people reading the group, not just a bunch
of pixels on the monitor. As you know, some of us have met in real
life, shared plants and stories, visited each other's gardens. It's
nice, actually, until politics and trolls make things nasty.
far too much of it. I don't want any power over you or anyone else.
Why would you even go there?
offend me again? Stick to gardening, talking about yours, mine,
others, and sharing info WRT the food chain, organic standards, etc.
and there's no offense at all, we're in agreement. I guess you're not
going to see that (how much we do agree) now that you've decided I'm
the antichrist or somesuch. Whatever.
When the world wearies and ceases to satisfy, there's always the
garden - Minnie Aumonier
Charlie, it suddenly occurred to me that you really didn't understand
what I said had been spoken about. Now upon rereading this I realize
you think information you shared with our mutual friend was passed on
to me. It wasn't. I really had no idea what you were talking about
until I suddenly realized you thought your confidence had been broken.
It hadn't. The only thing I asked was whether or not you were real,
and she said yes, you were, she'd spoken to you. That's it. No more
than that. And to tell you the truth I really don't care what you
shared, it's none of my business. Please, rest assured, nothing
personal was exchanged with me, it wasn't the intent of the
As for avoiding you, that's your problem. I have no reason to avoid
you or anyone else in these groups.
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