Cheery Article

[Charlie]

Actually, Ann started this whole shebang when she responded to a post that Billy made to someone else... he wasn't talking to her.

[e-mail]

Now then, things start going to hell after this, one can read all about it over where it happened in rec.gardens. Ok, here is the first incidnet of name-calling......

[e-mail]

Now, it would appear that Ann didn't care to participate in any discussion, reasoned or otherwise (this was apparent earlier in the thread) and tossed one of the Usenet Standard Issue insults, TROLL.

Things quickly proceeded downhill from there, as we have all seen.

Now back to my paine quote. Given that you and I know nothing about each other, likely have dissimilar backgrounds, education, interests, ages, likes and dislikes, spiritual beliefs, politicla beliefs, etc.......it is no wonder you didn't get my point. Our heads be different and the synapses don't connect the same way, Cap'n. :-)

**Note Emoticon**

Plus it's that old Usenet thingie, ya' know.

Point was, and yes it was a slap at Ann, and any others who fail to see the situation in the good old usa, that things are wrong here and yet many don't see how bad it is and when confronted with the situation "raise at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom."

Enough discourse and whacks and time passes and some people begin to see the light. "Time makes more converts than reason."

Whatever.

Things are going to hell in big hurry and those that don't see it are stoopit and are in for a big fat surprise.

"When men yield up the privilege of thinking, the last shadow of liberty quits the horizon." ~Thomas Paine

Care Charlie

"You got your mind right, Luke?" "Yah, I got it right, Boss."

[Charlie]

This is simply more name-calling, Ann, and false. I find what you call ranting, informative. Now......what do we do with that?

You cannot even begin to make that determination. He has demonstrated a love and passion for what this country was supposed to be all about....you do know what it was about way back when.......at least what it was supposed to be about....Howard Zinn ceratinly gave me a different set of facts than I used to carry about.

His "politically slanted" posts show his desire for equality for all.

Bullshit.

I don't understand this line.

Another insult and name calling.

You have stated that you don't get involved in the political discussions. Don't cover your butt by calling troll. You could have let it go.

Charlie

[Ann]

Charlie expounded:

What are you, Billy's defender? I say bullshit to both of you. I've let it go, now you're wading into it. I have it from someone I know and love dearly that you are for real - I accepted that assessment. Now live up to her belief of you and let it go, too. It's none of your business.

[Charlie]

Hell yeah I am for real, Ann, though apparently not your requirement for real.

I'm disappointed that you would try that line of shit on me, Ann. I grew up with that crap and got over it long ago. I'll spare you the vulgar, vile reply that instantly came to mind, the result of years of conditioning.

You are right, you are none of my business.

"Wherefore, since nothing but blows will do, for God's sake, let us come to a final separation." ~ Thomas Paine

Good luck Charlie

[Steve]

I know.

Actually Charlie, we may have more in common than you might imagine. I think that's a good thing, and hope you would, too.

A significant effect of the current administration has been the creation of a culture of hate. I wish we could avoid it in a gardening group.

[Charlie]

Yep, you kinda get feelings from/for people, and what they post. I have had "that feeling' about ya for awhile. We'll play about a bit, eh?

And keep in mind the usenet thing. ;-)

For what it is worth to you and all, I am not Bill's defender. He can handle that quite well on his own. I think I need him defending me at times, when I have me arse hanging out a bit too far in the breeze.

Bill is my friend, another old warrior with more experience than I will ever have. Perhaps a Medicine Man.

Is it a culture of hate or a culture of anger? Unity through anger and the resulting solidarity is perhaps a good thing? I have no use for, and have been misunderstood perhaps, nearly ALL politicos in the u$ now. I can only think of a handful of sens and reps that deserve the air they breathe. Our prez choices will not even bring me out to make my mark. None of the above.

All I know is that things are broken, and most days I fear broken beyond repair and we reach out to those that are like-minded. We speak out in whatever place we can. The tazing of the kid at The U of Fla this week was meant to send a message to this country, one that we hear all the time, on group and IRL........shut yer damn mouth or you will be dealt with.

How can we avoid it in this group? I agree, but folks are tense and everyone is feeling the pressure. Look at all the arguments that are breaking out. I am as guilty as any about lashing out and poking ignorance (as I percieve ignorance) in the eye with a stick. What right do I have to do that? None, really, but this is Usenet......one of the last frontiers, and one that may not be here much longer, given the hellbent desire for turning this country into a surveillance society, much like the Brits have had forced upon them.

Anyways, I rant on.....a bit too much java and all...

Care Charlie

Sorry, I cannot resist!

[Billy]

As usual Charlie, you take my breath away. My god you are well read. Well done. High fives all around.

I never read much until recently, when it became apparent to me that no matter how clever I thought I was, I was pretty ignorant. I've thrown a lot of energy at that problem in the last few year in an attempt to clear that up but I usually find myself drifting into empirical information and not so much philosophical stuff but you have such a breadth across the board as to be truly amazing.

So what worked out this year for you? What are you going to plant next year and what are you going to leave out?

For myself, I think I have worked out a crop rotation for my northern exposer hill. The up-shot is more beans and less corn. I'll expand my medicinals and the "Lovey-poo" wants more roots, especially parsnips and beets.

This was a really crumby year here in Northern California. In the bad old days we may have starved because everything is coming in so late. It was great living weather and really bad gardening weather. We only reached 100 F once.

The heat came on at the beginning of the grape harvest but it collasped after about three weeks. About 60% of the grapes are harvested and some of the grapes are going backwards in their sugar content. What looked like a short season, suddenly looks longer, with more over time. Good for me because my dentist found an European vacation in my mouth even though that bastard Bush took us from 78 cents to the Euro to $1.40. Wonder why the stock market is going up? It's because the dollar is going down. It takes more dollars to buy the same thing.

The Farm Bill of course is a disaster. People are getting fat because the government subsidizes cheap carbs and hydrocarbons (oil) instead of cheap vegetables but then vegetables don't need so much Middle East oil to make them grow.

Wishing you the best. Don't worry about the little squabbles here. Just get yourself better.

Your friend and admirer,

[Charlie]

Well now, hmmmmmm.......thank you, but I truly ain't that bright, my friend. Like you discovered, we are none of us quite as clever as we think we are. The beginning of wisdom or something like that. :-)

Tell you what. I'll post this reply up in the next couple of days in it's own thread. I've been thinking about it some already....good time to start planning.

Lovey has me in harness *and* chains for the next twenty-four or so. The damned dog started things off by barfing across two rooms of carpet yesterday, and you know, as long as you are cleaning those messes up, you might as well do the whole damned house, eh?

Number One Grandson's other papa (that is his name for the Opas) is coming for lunch tomorrow, along with both boy's families. That's cool. Annii's dad is a good head, been round a few of the same blocks as you and I. Doin' a pork loin on the grill, tater salad (I hope.....I'm like nutty about tater salad) and I dont know what else yet. Good times, good food.

Yeah, no s**t......the dollar is taking it on the chin and a few things are developing overseas, and in the mid-east (not the war things) that make it look worse. Funny doings in the gold markets too, but I am no economist and have no money, It is just a good indicator of which way to run. Gives me something else to be paranoid about.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRR.........says Bingo the philosopher dog on that issue.

Workin' on it, my friend. Today was a good day.

The same Billy, the same.

Have a good weekend and get some rest, old chap.

Charlie

[Steve]

LOL There's a keeper.

[Charlie]

Man, it sure is!

Where did you get it?

Charlie

[Steve]

Get what?

[Ann]

Charlie expounded:

I guess the disappointment is mutual, then. I must say I'm a real amateur against some of the shit slingers in this group. And with that I'm done.

[Charlie]

Do you even know why I am disappointed? You ever heard of that conditional love thingie?

I'm disappointed that you expect me to live up to your, and your friend's, assessment and expectations. When I didn't, you became angry and withdrew your love. Conditional.

I am diasappointed that you couldn't accept me for whatever and whoever I am, warts and all. I'm disappointed, though not surprised, that you were discussing me with someone else offgroup. Your friend broke trust with me. One should rely upon one's own assessments and not use someone else's as a weapon, trying to threaten or influence my behavior towards you. I am immune to that, Ann. I have much experience with that. I also respect, and expect, off-group privacy. Should have known better. Actually, I did, yet I overrode my own better judgement.

So, our mutual disappointment is the same, yet different.

"The language of friendship is not words but meanings." ~Henry David Thoreau

Good Luck Charlie

[Ann]

Charlie expounded:

I haven't felt any love, Charlie, just judgement.

I don't expect anything but to be respected and respectful. I don't like the politics you two (you and Billy) constantly drag into these groups. I really do try to avoid them but I react sometimes. That's me. I am onboard with so many of the things you believe in. I just don't like conservative bashing. Because that's where I fall on the political spectrum, conservative with many 'liberal' beliefs.

You can have friends on the group, Charlie, so do I. Our discussions had nothing whatsoever to do with this current situation and took place months ago. I've always been wary of the two of you - I did think you were for real, but truly thought the other (Billy) was trolling for reaction because he kept digging at controversy. He got the reactions he wanted from me. You jumped in in his defense - something if he were a 'real' person he wouldn't need. Let him fight his own battles.

Not really.

Same to you, Charlie, and remember, I'm a gardener on a gardening group first and foremost. I'm not looking for a political fight, that teaches nothing to no one. We need to exchange ideas and thoughts, not toss barbs at one another just to get a reaction.

[Charlie]

I wasn't trying to "just get a reaction".

It was Mark Twain who said, 'In our country, we have those three unspeakably precious things: freedom of speech, freedom of conscience, and the prudence never to practice either.'

Seems appropriate, somehow. What I said in my previous post stands.

You can tell your friend to be wary of me too. I would appreciate your keeping what you learned from her about me to yourself and that she do the same. The personal information I unwisely passed on I had trusted to not be spoken of with any other than me, or that even I never be spoken of or discussed. I didn't choose to share that with you, at least yet, and yet here we are. We'll just leave it at this and you can let her know that what was shared with me is safe and has not and will not be ever spoken of.

Unfortunately this gives ya'll a certain amount of power over me, though many would trivialize this. I'll not make that mistake again. Thanks for the heads up and the reminder.

You may want to stop reading my posts, for I am sure that at some point I will offend you again. You can rest assured that none of my remarks shall be directed towards you or anything you have posted.

Your turn, for your last word.

Je suis fini avec toi Charlie

Gardening is civil and social, but it wants the vigor and freedom of the forest and the outlaw. ~Henry David Thoreau

[Ann]

Charlie expounded:

You are making far too much of it, and making it sound sick and sordid. It was neither, and as I said, had nothing to do with this situation. Get over it. I asked if you were real, she said you were. That's the extent of it. You really weren't our topic of conversation, it was the state of wreck.gardens and the tone and tenor. See, there are real people reading the group, not just a bunch of pixels on the monitor. As you know, some of us have met in real life, shared plants and stories, visited each other's gardens. It's nice, actually, until politics and trolls make things nasty.

I have no power over you at all, Charlie, you are, as I said, making far too much of it. I don't want any power over you or anyone else. Why would you even go there?

I read everything. I don't killfile. And why are you so sure you'll offend me again? Stick to gardening, talking about yours, mine, others, and sharing info WRT the food chain, organic standards, etc. and there's no offense at all, we're in agreement. I guess you're not going to see that (how much we do agree) now that you've decided I'm the antichrist or somesuch. Whatever.

Somehow I doubt that.

Your choice.

When the world wearies and ceases to satisfy, there's always the garden - Minnie Aumonier

[Ann]

Charlie expounded:

Charlie, it suddenly occurred to me that you really didn't understand what I said had been spoken about. Now upon rereading this I realize you think information you shared with our mutual friend was passed on to me. It wasn't. I really had no idea what you were talking about until I suddenly realized you thought your confidence had been broken. It hadn't. The only thing I asked was whether or not you were real, and she said yes, you were, she'd spoken to you. That's it. No more than that. And to tell you the truth I really don't care what you shared, it's none of my business. Please, rest assured, nothing personal was exchanged with me, it wasn't the intent of the conversation.

As for avoiding you, that's your problem. I have no reason to avoid you or anyone else in these groups.

[Billy]

It won't be the grim warrior that brings us down, it will be the happy face.

[Steve]

Or the Happy Meal. An oxymoron if ever there was...

[Billy]

Oxymoron? You've never seen a baby at the breast.