"Back to Nature" Cotton Burr Compost Question

[Charlie]

Hi Rick,

I disagree with your statements that it is a moot debate and that the world has three choices (though I do agree that greatly reduced breeding is the best option). Much of the world is rejecting GM crops. It is the Big Money Folks that tell the world what limited choices they have. Ourway or the Dieway.

You give credit to the FDA. The FDA has become a regulatory stamp for the big money concerns: ie; BigPharma, Monasanto, on and on ad nauseum. To use an FDA stamp of approval is BS or to even assume that the FDA any longer gives a fat baby's ass about anything but $$$$ is being naive.

Do you really believe that the GM folks are concerned about the starving people in this world? Or the FDA? Or Monsanto?

You are correct that nature and scientists have been improving varieties over the millennia, but even with hybridization, one's control is taken away by having to continually buy new seed. Saved seed from hybrids is a no go. One can only save seed and expect stable performance from stable plant varieties. That is the way to go. Genetic diversity and stability. Heirlooms have been developed that are regionally stable and productive and allow *individuals* to have control of their food, *not* the fascists.

GM crops are taking hybridization a step further and putting even greater control of the food supply in the hands of "them". And they who control the food supply control the people.

You recognize the inherent dangers in GM food. What is your data... your proof... that ingestion is not a bad thing? Why were Starlink contaminated products recalled if there is not doubt? Why have many countries banned the importation of GM products?

Perhaps I misunderstood the context of your post, but GM crops are

*not a good thing* ... IMO.

Have a Good Life Charlie

[William Rose]

Let's get the bottom line up front here. If the top 1% have their way, in a short time we will all be renting our homes, our furniture and, our clothes. Even now, we are all being farmed for our incomes. It's called consumerism.

That said, who plans and controls the proteins in GMOs? No one. If the guinea pigs don't drop stone dead immediately, you can bank the money and blame it on the underfunded, over-regulated FDA (The Politics of Food by Marion Nestle). Mother Nature has had about 4.5 billion years to work out accommodations between organisms and environment. GMOs would have you believe that they can strike a symbiotic relationship with nature in a couple of decades.

Proteins do indeed break down, for the most part, into innocuous amino acids but that is like saying a rock tied to a stick is a natural product. My organic chemistry professor used to tell us that we only needed to know about six atoms (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, sulfur and, something or other). But nearly an infinite number of compounds can be made from those simple building blocks. At present, the food pipeline is filled with only the best fillers and extenders, anti-oxidants, artificial colors, artificial flavors, stabilizers, antibiotics and their residues, insecticides and their residues, herbicides and their residues, feces, and now Franken proteins that work their way through the cell metabolism like sand through a swiss watch. Hunky dory, just peachy keen. Maybe, just for arguments sake (but I don't believe a whit of it), all these compounds are individually safe but, . . .what happens when they interact (react) with each other? Do we get outbreaks of Type II diabetes, asthma, autism, cancer, hypertension, environmental allergies? Please add to the list as you will.

It took three years for the government, back when it was fairly friendly to consumers, to get thalidomide off the market when you could see that women taking it were giving birth to babies without arms and legs. How long do you think it would take to get something subtle off the market? The thing is, GMOs fix a problem that we don't have yet, at an undetermined price to humans and the environment.

I'm sure you know the story of Percy Schmeiser and his contaminated canola beans

The Mexicans are having the same problem. Crops are being infected with GMO genes so you can't save your seeds and plant them any more because your seeds have copy-righted genes in them and you owe Monsanto beaucoup bucks. Traditional seeds are under attack. Instead of GMOs being grown in hermetically sealed green houses, it is the natural plants that must be sequestered to avoid copyright infringement.

I'll save genetic migration from corn to the weeds in the drainage ditch for another rant.

Populations are leveling off. Agri-corporations are over producing by about 30%. Starvation has more to do with distribution and profits, than it does with production.

Next come the privatization of the public sector. (Make you a deal on some clean air.)

So wave your flag. Trust the authorities know best. Being an Eloid isn't so bad, except you get eaten.

Screw 'em

- Bill Cloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

[Charlie]

Uhhh.... I assume this most excellent rebuttal and rant was directed at RT and *not* me.

Would like to add that the 30% overproduction will soon be taken care of as we implement the idiotic idea that we can burn off the last few inches of topsoil in our fuel tanks. Great idea... turn food and crop land into fuel so that we can maintain our level of consuming. Once again, who benefits?

I like your analogy of us being farmed for our incomes. It's better than the idea of being in a permanent debtor's prison without walls.

Fah.....I gotta go play in the dirt and calm myself.

Care Charlie

[William Rose]

Charlie, when your ready for some more shock therapy try

. All will be answered. $10,000,000,000/year in fuel subsidies will mostly go to Archer Daniel Midlands (what a surprise!). "The Congressional Budget Office estimates that reducing gasoline consumption

10 percent through ... fuel economy standards would cost ... about $3.6 billion a year. Achieving the same result by expanding ethanol production would cost taxpayers at least $10 billion a year...".

We got us a CEO president.

Who can we thank? ADM CEO Dwayne Andreas. "CEO Andreas gained legendary status as a double-dealer during the Watergate investigations, when the congressional hearings revealed that he had cut the $25,000 check used by Richard Nixon's "plumbers" to finance the famous hotel break-in."

If you like eating meat, you had better get ready to pony up.

"Mark Grasmick, a commodities trader at Valco Commodities in Rocky Ford, said corn prices are now above $4 per bushel.

"Last year, corn prices were at about $2.75 a bushel. Now, it's up mainly because of ethanol," Grasmick said.

According to federal Department of Agriculture reports, the amount of corn needed to make ethanol for transportation in the U.S. was projected to be 2.15 billion bushels in 2007. That figure is expected to rise to more than 3 billion bushels in 2008."

the rain has let up here. Back to some nice clean dirt.

- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

[Charlie]

No shock, Bill. I read Krugman's articles on a semiregular basis, particulary when they show up in the news and blogs I read.

This I didn't knwo. Not surprising, for as one keeps turning over rocks, many of the same slimy creatures keep crawling out. Many of us don't seem to realize that the place we find ourselves was determined decades ago. As long as we can keep on with our Happy Motoring, all will be well. Bah...the Great American Dream.

True, and I find it interesting this regional tidbit I picked up last week. A friend of my bro-in-law operated a 160 head dairy in Neb. He recently accepted a 400,000 g'vt buyout of his herd.

I thought that the Dairy Buyout Program was over in the late Eighties, when it did mega damage to the beef producers, as a result of the glut of dairy beef being processed. I don't know if this is widespread again, I can't seem to find any info, or else don't know where or how to search it. Perhaps it has resurfaced in newer farm bills. If this is widespread, it could show effect on beef in the future.

I don't know if this figures into anything other than price supports or not. Just seems a damn waste when kids are hungry, particularly in this country, that production is cut.

Though who the hell wants to eat that shit called meat anymore... pork and poultry fed melamine contaminated pet food, beef being fed poultry litter and other remains, antibiotic loaded, cage raised, etc. THe only pork I prchase is Beeler's and try to buy only certifiable

*100%" organic dairy and other meat. Local if possible. It's dmaned expensive to try and not play with the big boys. ANd we use less meat than in the past.

Yet another reason for people to take their gardening seriously and perfect their practices.

Local farmers are as happy as pigs eatin' crap by moonlight, with prices like this, consequences be damned, or most likely unknown.

produce a tankful of ethanol for your typical SUV would feed a person for a year.

I think I shall go to the garden and sit and think. Or maybe just sit.

Either way, *I* will fuel up with some ethanol derived from barley!

Cheers Charlie

[William Rose]

You must be drinkin' a micro-brew. Seems the big boys mostly use California long grain rice for making their suds, plus a little malt enzyme to trigger the conversion of starch to sugar. Shame that it takes $700 worth of water to produce $150 worth of rice. Water privatization is going to be the next step in the privatization of the public sector. When Bechtel took over Bolivia's water system they charged through the nose for the same quality of water and, made it illegal to collect rain water. You want to see a good riot? Watch the DVD "The Corporation". Those Bolivians did not see the humor of wealth being redistributed from the poor to the rich. I strongly recommend a book called "I was an Economic Hit Man". It's pretty short on specifics but really lays out how the "little Eichmans" of the World Bank and the IMF work.

I got in some good exercise this after noon by turning a couple of small garden plots with a fork. Hopefully, I'll get them partially planted tomorrow. Learned last year not to plant all the corn at the same time. Hopefully, I'll be a little better in catching them when they are ripe. Last year I waited for the tassels to change color. This year I think I'll just go for it when I see any tassels at all.

So, where are you at (geographically) Charlie and what is the anesthetic of choice there?

Prost, (Bitte, ein Bit, if I have one left;

[Usenet2007]

You and Robert?!??? I would never have guessed.

[Rick]

Hi Charlie,

I'm not one much for USENET debates and have not read any of the other posts. Hopefully I won't stub any toes. I will clarify why I know the debate about GM foods is moot. You obviously live in a place and with a lifestyle that allows you to choose whether you wish to eat GM foods (at least for now). Most of the world does not. Without genetically engineered drought resistant crops, or crops like Roundup ready soybeans much of the world is faced with starvation. In a way it is big (agri) business that drives GM, in that farm industries (as opposed to small local farms) must produce a product that is affordable for the target population (in this case, bone poor). Some of our practices are obviously absurd, such as spending $5 in oil energy to fly a $1.50 in equivalent energy in lettuce to the UK. However, people in the UK want fresh salads in winter, and can pay for them. There is fair evidence that the human population is once again reaching the carrying capacity of the earth, and no new source of cheap power is on the horizon. In many reaches of the world staples such as grains, soybeans etc. are in such short supply they simply can not be obtained. That situation is worsening geometrically, and so GM foods will be employed to stave off mass starvation for a few additional years.

As to whether GM foods are (more) dangerous (than other foods)- find out. Go to a research oriented University and take some graduate level courses in biochemistry, molecular genetics, physiology, cell biology etc.. With hard work and 4 or 5 years, you will at least be able to understand the questions. Or just make up your mind based on your beliefs, your faith in your biases, and let it go at that. As Galileo said- "Eppur si muove" (Nevertheless it still moves).

People want to eat, and even if you are in europe, you are undoubtedly already consuming many GM foods, unless you have the discipline to start with raw heirloom foodstuffs and make all of your own food.

As for Starlink, the contaminated products contained Bacillus thuringiensis subspecies tolworthi Cry9C protein and the genetic material necessary for its production in corn- a natural pesticide. I use BT (the bacteria) to control hornworm on my tomatoes, as do many gardeners who wish to avoid chemical pesicides and as do organic tomatoe farms. Still, Cry9C protein is not (yet) allowed for use in foods for human consumption because it shares several molecular properties with proteins that are known food allergens. Apparently, there was no evidence that anybody actually had an allergic reaction to the protein, as summarized below. However, food allergies are certainly one possible problem with GM foods. That isn't any different than "regular" food. The real lesson fron Starlink is that a GM food should not be approved for one use and not another unless systems are in place and steps can be taken to insure segregation of the crops. Btw, I don't work in this type of industry. I do like to eat.

Take care, Rick

Excutive summary On October 25, 2000, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) requested technical assistance from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in investigating adverse event reports (AERs) of human illnesses that were potentially associated with consumption of genetically modified corn products. Prior to these reports, a protein named Cry9c had been inserted into genetically modified StarLink? corn; it subsequently and inadvertently was introduced into the human food supply. CDC conducted an epidemiological investigation that included (1) reviewing the AERs, (2) administering questionnaires to all people who experienced adverse health effects and manifested signs and symptoms consistent with allergic reaction, (3) obtaining relevant medical records, and (4) collecting serum samples for temporary banking. The investigation concluded that 28 people had experienced apparent allergic reactions. These people had also reported eating corn products that may have contained Cry9c protein. With the endorsement of U.S. Environmental Protection Agency?s Scientific Advisory Panel which convened on November 28,

2000, CDC recommended that the banked serum samples be evaluated to see if they contained evidence of an allergic response to the Cry9c protein.

An FDA laboratory developed an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) method to detect antibodies to the Cry9c protein. CDC sent coded serum samples to FDA for analysis, including serum samples from the affected people and historically banked serum samples collected before Cry9c entered the food supply. CDC also sent serum samples from people identified as being highly sensitive to a variety of allergens. The ELISA method found that none of the CDC-submitted samples reacted in a manner consistent with an allergic response to the Cry9c protein.

These findings do not provide any evidence that the reactions that the affected people experienced were associated with hypersensitivity to the Cry9c protein. The difficulties of this investigation highlight the importance of evaluating the allergic potential of genetically modified foods before they become available for human consumption.

[William Rose]

It was after a brewmasters siminar in Dusseldorf and some of the brewmasters went down for a drink. First in was the brewmaster from Budweiser who asked for a Bud on draft. Next in was the brewmaster from Labatt's who asked for a Labatt on draft. Then the brewmaster from Lowenbrau ordered a Lowenbrau on draft. Finally, the brewmaster from Guinness came in, took one look around and said to the barman, "Give me a Coke". Stunned, the other brewmasters said,"Paddy, why are you drinking a Coke"?

Looking grimly at them, Paddy said."If you fookin' pansies ain't gonna drink beer, neither an I."

-------

A German friend had what I thought was the perfect description of an English ale pub's brew. The bartender ask what he thought of it, to which my friend replied,"I think your horse is sick."

-------- I couldn't find a Bitburger, which I really prefer with food but I did find an Anderson Valley Oatmeal Stout, perfect for sipping.

I digress.

I'm here in Northern California, 'bout 70 mile north of San Francisco, living in a wide spot in the road called Forestville, near Santa Rosa. I started reading your posting and realized I know more about what's going on in Japan than I do the Midwest. If you don't mind, e-mail me at the above address, I've never even heard of Ventria.

The morning fish-wrap mentioned a website,

which I'n sure the readers of this group will find edifying and which will be of special interest to those who think home gardening is too expensive for what we get. If nothing else it can help us make more responsible purchases.

Last year was my first successful attempt at growing corn, we had a hot summer. I'm hoping to duplicate my results with an earlier start and improved soil. It's hard justifying the room and water that it takes so I just have it in a couple of small plots that I shoe-horned in. I mix the patch with melons and pole beans. Melons and corn, that's conspicuous consumption.

I planted a wisteria over the gate into the yard, three years ago. This year it bloomed forth in all its' splendor and, it is beautiful to behold but, it is shading a small patch that I'm trying to get into production. So here I am, dangling on my own petard.

Even using "Sluggo", I'm still having some predatation (it's a lot less though) in the garden at night. Man, wandering around in the dead of night, on terraces, with a flashlight doesn't make me a happy camper. I think I'll try the slightly elevated board routine and see what's underneath of it in the morning.

Keep pissin' and moanin', if the wheel don't squeak, it'll never get fixed.

- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

[Charlie]

And in the meantime, the poor and starving will be bled of any remaining assets they may possess. Then they die and the beast moves on to the next prey.

You imply that unless one has specific education, one cannot even understand the questions and has no right to weigh in unless so edgycated? Otherwise it is simply a "faith based" decision? Only science has the correct answers?

Damn Rick, that sounds just a little arrogant and condescending.

You are right about not debating this,,,, the debate started years ago and will rage on. Using your criteria, I, and many others don't really "get it". Sadly, many of us *do* get it. This could easily wind up as many debates on the Usenet do, with everyone looking like digital monkeys in trees chucking turds at one another.

If you want to put your faith in the benevolence of BigMoney and the FDA and the "research oriented universities" (follow the money, check out the funding), fine... we'll let it go at that.

BTW, Do you remember the commercials on the telly back in the B&W days? "Better Living Thru Science"........ man, noe *that* worked out well, didn't it. Still lots of remedial science going on. Science is good a creating some fine messes, Ollie, but not so good at undoing the mistakes.

I, in my ignorance, complete with my biases, have made up my mind.... but I am not about to let it go. You can have your world, I prefer to remain The Savage.

I pray that everything works well, (depending upon each one's definition of well) for all of us. I fear it won't for any of us.

We each do our little bit and our dance and then we move on. Diversity, it is what makes life worth living.

Care and thanks for the reply Charlie

[William Rose]

Charlie, this boy just fall of the turnip truck or something? Rick, if GMOs are so freaking wonderful, why aren't we allowed to choose? Hmmm You obviously haven't been reading the conversation. I thought democracy and, free markets only worked with informed consent. What response do you have to unknown synergistic reactions among the thousands of new chemicals released into the environment in the last forty years, not to mention increase in discharge of all chemicals? If you want to participate, lay out your rationale. Give us something we can get our teeth into. World hunger has more to do with the inequitable distribution of wealth in prior colonies. But if you want something to chew on try

and the come back and play Polly Anna for us. I mean, what am I doing in a hand basket and where am I going?

- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

[Charlie]

Hmmmmm....maybe he's not really a turnip at all: maybe he's one of them there agent provocateurs that lurk about the newsgroups, seeking to sow seeds of doubt and dissension amongst the faithful. Or to collect data about all us dissident types that try and fight the company.

And what the hell? You just had to go and play the "children and toxins card", didn't ya? Starts me afrothin' anew.

People gotta wake up and *believe* that we are what we eat. And that

*we* are responsible for what we eat and cannot trust ...*them*. And *must* speak out.

Hey! Y'all want to see what kind of weather happens out here in the flyover. Check out this about Greensburg KS.....effing wiped out!

or whichever, for more on this series of tornadoes and storms. This was a devasting round of storms and lots of people are dead and hurting in many ways. It's all over the Weather Channel at the moment, at least our version of TWC, I don't know what they show in other regions.

Care, and keep an eye on the sky Charlie

[William Rose]

Jeez Charlie, the local fish wrap

didn't have anything about anything in the "flyover". This is just so totally screwed. A mile wide twister and nine dead and, we have drivel about an anachronistic Queen and the sale of a replica of the Dukes of Hazards car in our A section.

About nine companies own all the major newspapers in America. If you expect anything more than the funnies you had better find a source of information. I suggest any of the Pacifica stations e.g.

or watch Democracy Now .

What else aren't they telling us?

Aren't we all Americans? I guess not. What a huge steaming pile of B.S. this country has become.

- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly, but not this time)

[Rick]

Since when? Have you forgotten about tobacco, and the cocaine that was originally in Coke? Do you understand what your COX-2 inhibitors do, why they are no better than aspirin at controlling pain, cost 120x as much and wreck your heart? Ibuprofin?, acetaminophen? less effective than aspirin, more expensive, worse side effects.

Choice is a capitalistic euphemism.

*Ask your doctor if the purple pill is right for you... Heck- (s)he doesn't have a clue, how could the general populace?

The point of GMO (in part) is to reduce the chemicals applied to control pests. So by that criteria you should be a big fan. Why aren't you?- because you probably do not understand. I don't know, you may be able to design a bridge to transport 100,000 cars a day across the SF bay using vector forces, materials science and calculus of which I am only dimly aware. When I drive across such a bridge, I marvel at what disciplined minds can do. Rarely a bridge collapses with catastrophic consequences, but people do not assume the engineers had evil intent, or did not know what they were doing

Walt Disney and Steven Spielberg have managed to help convince the gullible that scientists as a class, and biologists in specific are inherently stupid and evil. Add a dash of anti-intellectual religious fanaticism, and suddenly everybody is looking for Frankenstein in the most ridiculous places. I will say to you what I said to Charlie. Educate yourself to the point you are comfortable that you understand the questions and join the debate, or assume the bridge will hold up, and drive forward without a qualm. Anything else is just BS. *Faith* and *I beleive* have no place in the design of a bridge, or a GMO.

Genetic modification has nothing to do with the release of new (or old) chemicals. Roundup ready crops encourage the use of glyphosate, which is rapidly sequestered by binding to clay in soils. I love it that I can see that interaction in 3 dimensions, and wish everybody could. It also results in far less use of much nastier chems, that are nor so benign in the environment.

Polly Anna thinks she'll be eating well when the world population reaches 9 billion in 25-35 years. I don't. Think Somalia on steroids.

[Rick]

No- it's reality. People with such an education can and usually do disagree about many things. I'm simply telling you that you do not have the foundation to make an informed decision unless you acquire the education, or find some one you trust that has done.

I did not say I favored GM in any way. There are some products out that seem well concieved and helpfull, others- not so much- BUT that is just my take on it. The satellite viruses (forms of viruses that require other viruses to finish their replication cycles) that prevent rust ( think fungus) on rice seem to be a good example. Those little engineered nanobots have upped the rice crop in China 4-500%

I do not have faith in anything.

If you are over the age of 32, statistically you are alive because of science (assuming you are female). Male -a bit younger.

What is needed in this and all such debates is information transfer. Stem cells (my dad could have used those), cloning (general), cloning (human), genetically engineering bacteria (eg. bugs that eat oil spills currently in use), viruses (viruses that attack cancer. currently in use) plants (soybeans etc), animals (lean meat, cows that secret drugs in their milk), humans (not yet, or so I think). There are ethical and scientific issues to all of these things. Knee jerk responses (Cloning Bad, Organic good) are of absolutely no help.

Sorry, gotta go, and we probably just need to agree we speak different languages. _Rick

[Charlie]

We are collectively Mushroom People, you know... kept in the dark and fed crap.

Increasing readership, I see ;-) Can't tell if anyone else is listening or not here. I hope so. All this is relevant, with just a bit of thought.

We once were all mostly united... I seem to remember. Keep us divided and fed disinfomation and lots of Anna Nicole (or whatever other flavor is popular that day) and kept poor, yet wanting more and more, and it is easy to control public awareness and action. People I know and work with, and some family start looking for other things to do when I start on one of my daily rants. Though I must say, my sons are showing that they really have been paying attention all these years. They have even started going thru all my back issues of Mother Earth News and are trying some of the stuff they find.

And the elder son is working on plans for a large garden including a huge asparagus bed. Hope he gets to going.... he has nearly an acre in the back of his yard!

We're taking a huge hit with rain here. Four inches in the last 12 hours with lots more on the way. Chance of storms and severe storms all week they say. Flooding is fast becoming an issue, with many roads closed in the four corners region...ks,ia,nb and mo. We have managed to avoid any hail related with these storms. Lemme tell ya', as anyone from hail country can, hail will play hell with plants. Is that ever an issue in your part of the world? I would guess not often.

Tell me climate change is not a very real issue. It is certainly affecting gardening and garden plans in recent years and even more severely this year. It should be interesting what summer brings.

Won't be much gardiening done here for quite some time. I'm having to move a bunch of seedlings and pots under cover to keep the poor dears from drownding. Fortunately what is in the ground is mostly in raised beds and drains well.

Crap, I gotta shut this machine down....another one is starting and the the lightning is getting severe.

Stay dry Charlie

[Charlie]

Probably best. So it goes. Thanks for the replies.

Like I said,

Besides, Alphas need us drones for...well, you know :-)

Care, and Enjoy your World Charlie

[William Rose]

Right as usual. Spent part of the afternoon turning and, blending in some aged manure, in another part of the garden where I am planting Degli Ortolani and, lemon cukes. Spading by hand. If it don't kill me, it will make me stronger. Soil is looking pretty good except for the spare rocks. I also got nine Dent corn, six asparagus pole beans, a Sugar Baby (early ripening) watermelon and a Minnesota Midget Muskmelon planted today, all germinated from seed. They join about twenty lettuce plants, twelve bush beans, two dozen snow peas and, two German Striped tomatoes. Another corn patch awaits me tomorrow where earlier ripening varieties of corn will be planted with another Sugar Baby watermelon. This is about a third of the garden. I still have a trellises to move out of a shady part of the property and into the sun for a climbing zuke (zuchetta sp?) and some birdhouse gourds. Repairing the drip irrigation as I go.

The sun is out here. It is 4:30 PM, 89 F and the butterflies are skipping around and, the birds are singing. Again I've see one bee today. I'd call him/her a bumble bee because it was so puffy and fuzzy with the classical yellow and black stripes. I'm a very lucky person, when you consider all the misery out there in the Mid-West and the Mid-East. Hopefully, they'll get their share soon.

How am I doing Sue?

- Bill Coloribus gustibus non disputatum (mostly)

[Charlie]

See, see.... now you done got us in trouble, talkin' in class. ;-)

Chastised Charlie

[William Rose]

My bad:>O

- Bill