Boise "I" Beams

[RicodJour]

The adult variety being preferable? ;)

R

[RicodJour]

The original post had a link. On that page you can see the temporary classrooms next to the _biggest_ basketball court I've ever seen in my life.

[RicodJour]

Your point about large section wood members having superior fire resistive properties is valid - assuming that the wood beam is of sufficient size and that the steel isn't adequately fireproofed.

The school isn't timber framed. The webs and chords of engineered joists and trusses and other small pieces of wood are commonly referred to as "kindling".

Private home, personal risk. Public building, public risk. Higher standards should be in effect.

R

[RicodJour]

Italy does, of course, have firefighting ERVs.

As far as the response frequency and demographics, even if only 5 or

10% of fire _engine_ responses here are fire related, that's still a far higher fire rate than what I witnessed in Italy.

South Florida uses the same sirens? That seems odd to me. Same lights, too?

You said Italian and inspections in the same sentence! LOL Northern Italy is vastly different than southern. Friends visited Sicily a few years back and were aghast that the hotel they were in was building a _major_ addition without permits or _plans_!

In all of this discussion, there is an implied "all other things being equal". You've pointed out a valid inequality. Let's ignore it. ;)

Absolutely. Ummm, what exactly am I agreeing to? I don't catch your meaning. I don't think response time, building age, or response frequency (?) has anything to do with the building construction in any case, does it?

I posted something on one newsgroup or another about Holland removing the traffic control devices in one particularly dangerous intersection and how it improved safety. Couldn't agree with the reasoning more.

Stop. You're making me hot.

Most inane. It's okay to show the cleavage side of the breast, but not the outside or bottom? Why not just state Cova Da Nips? I'm sure Western civilization would collapse if people saw nipples.

R

[Matt Whiting]

The point is that higher standards and material selection aren't related. You can build to higher standards with any material and you can build substandard structures with any material. Look at which structures fail most often in earthquakes. Hint: it isn't heavy timber structures.

Steel, concrete, masonry and timber all have their advantages and disadvantages. The issue with this school isn't material selection it is a quality control issue with the fabrication. This is no different than a steel building with poor welds or a concrete building with inadequate rebar.

Matt

[RicodJour]

They are related, just not necessarily in a one to one relationship.

Look at what people build, worldwide, when they need a literally bomb-proof building. Hint: it isn't heavy timber.

Look at what people build, worldwide, when they need a fireproof, not fire resistive building. Hint: it isn't heavy timber.

Starting out with a clear picture of the objectives will help determine the best materials for any construction within the confines of the budget. That was my point from the beginning. I believe that there are better choices than engineered I-joists for schools. YMMV

Agreed. Something hidden is something hidden, but something that should have been obvious, such as the off-color glue joints the OP indicated, was not noticed due to either inexperience or faulty quality control processes in the field. That's why I said there was enough blame to go around.

I would hazard a guess that no inspection was done of the I-joists at all, other than for quantity and size. Carpentry crews don't have the necessary skills and experience to inspect I-joists for manufacturing defects. Carpenters will reject split or broken members, but a wrong color glue joint would not send up any red flags.

A steel fabrication or precast plank would undergo a more stringent inspection, and the crews installing them would most likely notice any obvious manufacturing defects.

R

[marcenmoni]

That is the classic Italian fire truck.

The ERVs I was thinking of are:

which fire departments in south Florida use to regularly attend to car accidents, for instance. I Vigili del Fuoco in Italy (I don't believe) are called on with the same frequency for these kinds of accidents. My point being that fire departments in Italy probably don't respond the same way they do here, independantly of frequency of fires.

ERV and fire trucks have the same sirens. In Italy, the sirens used to be the two toned sound, but in the late 80s early 90s they converted to a similar siren sound like that used in the US, though I don't remember now if that is also the case for fire trucks. Ambulances and police yes.

Yes, 'abusive' construction is common all over Italy, but particularly in Sicily, Campagnia and Calabria. I don't know how bad it is Puglia and Basilicata. But there are honest towns in these regions also.

You raised the issue of low frequency of fire truck citings in Rome versus where you live, with the implication that masonry construction had a lot to do with the difference in number of fires. My point is that masonry construction has very little to do with it, since fire fighters will quickly respond when called upon. The frequency of accidental fires is a function of people's awareness and care; construction may help protect people when fires arise but it's not a given that masonry construction reduces the number of fires among the same set of people.

If you remember from your stay in Italy, p*rn magazine covers are easily visible at any kiosk, for any child to see. And yet, life goes on.

Marcello

[Don]

wrote

Holy Toledo, I don't know what half that stuff is, and I've not led a sheltered life. If I did happen to see the stuff, that I don't know what it is, I wouldn't know what it was called. Does that make sense????

[Don]

wrote

Big shit boxes full of toys. They're all over Cape Coral, that babyshit yellow-green color. When that kid killed his dad behind my house 2 years ago 8 BIG firetrucks showed up, 40-50 people running up and down the street. Extreme overkill. When I see an ERV on call with lights and siren blaring its going about

35mph and there's a fat chick driving it. When I see the occupants at Wendy's they have all sorts of radios and gimmicks hanging all over them, they look like circus clowns. I imagine they all will soon start wearing SWAT gear. I mean, its so stylish, and helps to make the sheeple more comfortable for whats in store for them on down the line..........

[Matt Whiting]

It depends on the requirements. Engineered I-joists are very good choices for schools or many other structures.

I disagree. There are many grades of steels for W sections, bolts, welding rod, etc. There is almost no way in the field to know that a given piece of steel is the composition specified and has the proper heat treatment for that composition. A quality control lapse at a steel factory could have exactly the same consequences as with these wood joists and be equally hard to detect.

My point is that you were pointing the finger at the material when the problem isn't the material at all. And this problem isn't material-specific, as any material could have the same problem. Rarely is every bolt and piece of steel field tested for composition and strength. Same for concrete. Some projects may sample every single batch of concrete for strength, but I don't think this is uniformly done. Just look at the Big Dig if you want to see quality control issues with steel and concrete.

Matt

[RicodJour]

No, not a given, but I never saw evidence of a building fire. Period. I saw car fires and fires in the woods (campfires run amok?), but not one charred window, roof, nothing. I was there a relatively short time, but I probably spent four or five times as much time outdoors, hiking the streets and traveling as I do here, so it was espresso time (I've trademarked that, so don't even think about lifting it!). It's indicative, not a given.

Your point about awareness is interesting, but I can't imagine that a broad population would be that much more aware. The furnishings and how the room is outfitted also has a big impact, but I think that feeds into my viewpoint. Schools are required to utilize fire retardant fabric for wallcoverings and the like, so

The first time I witnessed such things I was ten years old. My father had been invited to Italy to teach and he dragged the family along. At the time I'd rather have spent time hanging out with my friends, but walking around Rome the first day and seeing Brigitte Bardot on an advetising poster on a telephone pole, with her shirt open and her jeans unzipped...well, it kind of took some of the sting of missing my friends away. ;)

R

[Pat]

So basically "flashing" would be a zoning violation?

Or > RicodJour wrote:

[RicodJour]

There are area limitations on the size of wood framed buildings. Loopholes are sometimes used to circumvent those code restrictions. Modeling a single building as three separate buildings to circumvent code makes me uncomfortable. How do you feel about it? How do you feel about it in regards to school buildings in particular?

{snip}

I have no problems with any particular building material. I have problems with how they're employed, why they're employed and how they're detailed. I already stated my opinion on wood I-joists in school buildings, numerous times. I already wrote YMMV - you're entitled to your opinion. Maybe if you keep talking you'll convince me, but I wouldn't count on it as you've offered nothing but your opinion. That by itself shouldn't convince me, should it?

I disagree with the choice of materials. I do not solely blame the material. I thought I had made that clear. Apparently what you were misreading is what I wrote originally, "There's plenty of blame to be assigned to the code officials, architect, engineer and school board as well." I could have sworn that I referred to that in the post you are responding to. Let me check...yep.

Can you offer any references, other than those sponsored by the wood industry, that prove the superiority of light member engineered wood structures in anything other than cost? If not, you're simply saying that cost is the overriding factor. In many situations that is obviously the case. I don't work that way and I disagree that having a larger, less safe building is a wise use of the money.

I find it curious that you never addressed my other points, such as need for public shelters, etc.

That wasn't quality control, that was graft. If your quality control inspector is on the take, well, all bets are off, aren't they?

R

[Matt Whiting]

I'm not in favor of subverting building codes, even when they are stupid. It doesn't matter to me what type of building it is, the code should be followed.

Only if it makes sense.

No, cost isn't the overriding factor. The factors vary by region and circumstances. In areas where wood is plentiful and the local labor force is familiar with wood, it is an excellent choice. In areas where wood isn't readily available, but masons are, then masonry is often the better choice. Likewise, with steel. Steel is great for skyscrapers where its high strength to weight and size are extremely important. However, as we saw with the WTC and with other structures, fire is a big problem with steel, even fireproofed steel. Fireproofing steel is very hard to do uniformly as field tests have often demonstrated. However, in a skyscraper wood and even concrete really isn't practical so you just accept the fire danger.

When I built my lot house everyone thought I was going to pay high insurance rates because of how easily wood burns. Well, log homes actually get preferred rates in many areas (mine being one) as they are actually seldom damaged beyond repair by a fire as is the case with standard stud frame construction or steel stud construction. Unless the fire department doesn't show up at all, typically at most 1/4" of a heavy beam will be damaged and that in many cases can be sanded off, the wood refinished, and you are back in business.

I wasn't trying to address every point. How would you like that point adressed? Public shelters for what purposes and from what hazards?

It was both graft and quality control. And, yes, in cases like that all bets are off.

Matt

[RicodJour]

It's been quite a while since you've posted pictures of your house. I'm sure there are more than a few people reading who've never seen your place.

How about simply the efficacy of combining functions in municipal buildings by having public schools serve as public shelters. Do you think that increasing the cost of the school building to have it do double duty, while eliminating the need for a dedicated shelter building makes sense?

R

[Don]

16/12 pitch roof. Doggies. I likes me a steep roof. Saw a guy installing metal on a 12/12 roof the other day, in the rain, he walked right up it like he was on level ground. Musta had on them sucker boots or sumfink. I get terrified on my 6/12 roof, (and I'm a ex-paratrooper) specially close to the edge on the back. You fall off back there it;ll take 3 days to hit the ground..........

[Matt Barrow]

Toys.

[Pat]

Just to provoke the two of you:

I guess I don't have a problem with having wood hold up the school. But I do have a problem with GLUE holding up a school.

Of course with parents being parents, you'll immediately get 5 or 6 who say their kids are dying from the outgassing and 10 or 12 who say that their kids are allergic to pine/oak/balsa or whatever other type of wood is used.

As for metal, well metal is fine but metal trusses aren't terrible good in a fire. That's why NY and NY require the truss warning beside the doors if trusses are used -- even metal ones.

Out where I live, almost everything is 1 and 2 stories, so we don't go quite a high as many places.

-------- Chang> Matt Whit> >

[Matt Whiting]

A gentleman named Joe Barta provided the site for them when I built the house. I don't have a personal web site and posting pictures to a non-binaries group is a no-no so I'm not sure of a way to make them available.

I think it may depending on the community and the local needs. In a tornado zone it would seem to make a lot of sense.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

If you want to provoke me, you'll need to do a lot better than this. :-)

Matt