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http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici 78-6527(1965%2F1966)18%3C143%3AMOUTBO%3E2.0.CO%3B2-T
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici 32-2992(1983)1%3C69%3ATOPANA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23
http://archnet.org/library/sites/sites.jsp?letter=&country_code=&place_id=&type=&style=Buyid&usage=&century=&decade=&order_by=site&showdescription=1
You mean for doing things twice?

Don't ask me. Thanks for all that, BTW. It's clear to me that what I think of as Balkan, and a lot of eastern European music is largely Romani.
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Michael Bulatovich wrote:

standard in Islamic architecture. The Selcuks that followed the Buyids, and in some cases finished their monumental buildings, both copied their style in almost everything but added soem of their own elements, particularly having compass point entrances which replicated, to an extent, their early Mongol/Turkic military encampments and organization.

In some things like music, it is hard to say what was the genesus for anything in particular. The ney of Iran is the kaval of the Balkans and is made from the same reed cane, which I may have pointed out before (arundo donax)in some discussion of pernicious imports for landscaping. The scales of Byzantine music are essentailly Syriac and Judaic tradition. The intervals of Indian music scales are as varied as Byzantine (and South Slavic) and several musicologists have found that there is a complete relication of some Indian with some Byzantine. Is this accidental or not? Roma have completely taken over for traditional musicians in some countrires, i.e. there used to be non Roma musicians doing music in Hungary, for example, that almost only Roma do today. Who invented what is not so important sometimes as carrying on the tradition or heritage. The Roma were kept as slaves longer than any other people in Europe and were freed last in Romania where they did almost all of the cooking, so it is unclear how much was invented by whom, almost all of the music and a great deal of the fine metalwork which they also still do in the Balkans (music and jewelry making and fine metalwork, tookmaking and metal repair). These all can be nomadic occupations
Take a look at Mamluk metalwork and Byzantine metalwork of Egypt. It is also difficult to discern the difference, also, sometimes of Celtic and Roma metal techniques. Why? Hard to know.
The term cincar (tsintsar), an ononomopoetic term, refers to the metalworking ability of Roma.among Latinic speaking people. What we mistakenly think of as the Russian samovar is actually Roma metalwork. Lemme see if there is anything worth perusing about Tula online. If one gets an antique samovar, one often sees the marks from the dates of its retinning on the inside and the city name impression and date. Tula is common as a repair place as well as a place of origin for much fine metalwork and repair.
http://www.russian-gifts-home.com/samovars/tula_samovar.htm http://www.russian-gifts-home.com/samovars/samovar.htm
inlay:
http://www.thecarvingpath.net/forum/uploads/post-1151-1178196437.jpg
table: http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/ho/09/eue/ho_2002.115.htm
*folktale: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tale_of_Cross-eyed_Lefty_from_Tula_and_the_Steel_Flea
*

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Or India. Or spending time in/passing through both

LOL. Apparently, Jan once turned up at an IRU (Internatinal Romani Union) conference in Strasbourg. Pulled out a Colt 45 (no kidding) started waiving it around, told the assembled delegates what he thought of them.

Very possible. Depends how long ago the poster appeared. There will be people these days who can produce a more or less standardised Romanes text. Much work done by Ian Hancock, a Rom, and linguist at University of Texas - Austin. Literacy is another conundrum. Roma will probably still claim illiteracy as a form of defence, eg "I can't read (the parking tickets) - I thought they were advertising fliers".
They are also good at dealing with researchers of all kinds. At one time my wife generated some interest because she is uncannily good at palm reading & tarot, but they soon backed off when they discovered that she also has a post-graduate degree in Material Anthropology.

http://phoenicia.org/australia.html
The Professor from Cairo, on NatGeo/Discovery Channel, finding black opals in undisturbed Egyptian burial sites. How did that happen :-)
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<snip>
A standard Serbian party game, only usually done with one end of a broken bottle, and usually played in pairs when thoroughly drunk : D)
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Troppo wrote lots of fascinating stuff, and:

Name, link to the Phoenician port? Certainly India had Phonecian ports.
In a couple ocuntries i am running into Egiptani who do speak a different language than Romani and claim to be a different people. Do you know anything about them? The Egiptani claim the Romani are Rajasthani originally, while originally they are Egyptians. Are credence to this? They do look somehow as Egyptians. They have an association in Macedonia and their numbers there, not so large are unfortunately made larger from some of the Kosovo Egiptani joining them for safety. Ppeople outside of them claim that they have a false history since the word Gypsy, an English word, derives from the word Egyptian from a false impression by someone in the middle Ages that they came from Egypt. But perhaps one group that was Egiptani, i.e. Egyptian nomads, ent to Europe and so every other nomadic group was stuck with a name incorrectly derived for them. Evidently, genome studies have linked the Romani to Rajasthan.
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Phoenician.
ports.
http://phoenicia.org/australia.html
The reference to Zoraster comes from Manfri Wood (collateral kin). Fairly cryptic stuff - as you might expect.

Another cultural defence possibly? Puzzles like this were useful to the Roma. If the host society got it wrong/couldn't work it out then it helps to protect the minority. Roma would often say "no - we are not [that lot] we are [another lot]".

Aha - A clue there. The biggest Roma group in Australia is from Macedonia. The Rom symbol of the 16-spoked wheel could be derived from the 16 pointed star of Macedonia, derived "it is said" from Alexander.

Or "little" Egypt - last point of embarkation somewhere in Greece I think.
"Where are you from" is an imprecise question. You mean - last week? Last year? Last millenium?

Yes. The Indian subcontinent was the place to be for a long period of time. High civilisation when the Europeans were still bashing each other with clubs. And there are many Roma in Rajasthan who didn't go west. But do they come from there?
Most societies have a tradition about where they "came from". "God made us out of mud". Scientists continue to wrestle over proto-humans and their origins. The Roma simply couldn't resist trumping this sort of thing - "We came from the stars ... ".
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Salesmen!
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That's the problem when people refuse to comprimise. Certainly there are things which should not be open to comprimise, tho' they'd make for a very long thesis, so I'm assiduously avoiding any sort of partial listing. A great many things, however, and perhpas even most things, should be subject to comprimises, because the sort of "winners-versus-losers" situation you mention merely deepens dissatisfaction overall, causing mroe problems than it solves.
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The fact that both exist at all in the same jurisdiction already points to some kind of compromise or, at least,an extermination still underway. My point is that these seem to be antitheses.
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Well, extermination is IMO the worst possible situation, but it's unfortunately what often happnes (usually?) when a majority deems a minority to be nothing more than a pain in the butt.
Re: thesis:antithesis, yes, but the only way to avoid such pairings (or to be perhpas more exact, triplicities, of thesis, antithesis, and synthesis/neothesis) is to eliminate complexity. Monothesis, monoculture.
Stability versis mobility, security versus freedom, and so on - most people see them as disconnected oppositions, but that's not the fact. We're all mixtures of things that seem, on the superficial first glance, to be dichotomous, and one thing cannot be eliminited without excising part of what it is that makes us human.
Kind of too tired right now to go into that much more in detail, but I think that's the gist of it.
In a way, nomads are like the birds - if you make a place for them, they can enrich your life. OK, that sounds awfully warmfuzzy-touchyfeelie, but really, life is enriched when we open ourselves to different experiences. ANd it's often the apparent dichotomies that enrich a culture.
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I think we're in agreement, but I would add that an elevated scarcity of resources for subsistence sharpens the divide...IOW, if you're hungry enough....you'll eat those birds. Seeds are for bait!
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True. Also, add in a *perceived* scarcity of resources. Many battles (both literal and figurative) are fought because two or more groups *believe* that there isn't enough to go around.
I'm reminded of several times (in various places I've lived0 where some sort of "mega-storm" was predicted, and accompanying shortages of items such as toilet paper, meat, bottled water, etc., were also predicted - it became a self-fulfilling prophecy, because some people would rush out immediately and buy the store out, leaving nothing for others. IOW, the shortage was created by the poeple who panicked first.
THat's always a problem, perceptions.
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I'd add that this is true, but usually in a particular *place*, which gets back to the traveler-settler issue. I sure a bunch of people have died over the millennia of our 'nomadic' history because one group wanted to reserve an area and its resources for their exclusive use, and were prepared to kill for it. That's how countries are made.
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[ sniped for bandwidth]

True. And it's difficult, giving up that posessiveness. I'm personally a very territorial person, although my territory is pretty small (a wee bit over 10,000 sq ft) which increases my defensiveness. So I know it's very difficult to say, OK, I'll give up this or that amount of my property so these other folks can have a place to sleep.
It's a very natural thing, territoriality, and I'd guess much more common than is the desire to not be tied to a place.
OTOH, most conflicts seem to arise because nobody wants to comprimise - one sice doesn';t want to give an inch, and the otehr side refuses to take a foot because they want to take a furlong...
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Would that make someone a nomad supporter? :)
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I guesss nobody got my joke? Nomad supporter vs. Gonad supporter? Anyone? :)
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Jude Alexander wrote:

Everyone got it. Was it a joke?

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How do you know everyone got it? It is confusing whether it's a joke or not?
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It has a bit of funeral look to it. Sorry, I can't appreciate it.
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:) Oh, I was sure it cost some good $... More than I could afford for sure.
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