Re: The value of shopping local

Page 3 of 12  


Yes, lets. Most people didn't live far past 40. People were short due to poor nutrition. Children worked in coal mines. Utopia!

I haven't suggested more money. I HAVE suggested that if we had no public education, no matter how ineffectual, we'd be even more of a third world country than we are.

That's not all students, or even most. And at least they go to college and eventually succeed.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

would
countries
education.....
It was far better than 5 acre farms.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

There you go, George, pining over the ideal of the past ;-).
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

for
Real humans left farming for the mills and mining as fast as they could. It was no ideal. It was just better than farming.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

would
we
education.....
You obviously know nothing about demography and life expectancy. Shame on you.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

what
70's
taken
The original statment on life expectancy was correct. In fact even in 1900 the average marriage lasted only 22 years before one or the other would die of natural causes. The fact that a few people lived longer has nothing to do with the fact of limited life expectancy. But cheer up: it was even worse in Roman times.
I suggest you get ahold of a standard demography text and check out the demographic transition.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

we
You sure like making a fool out of yourself.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Yes, the framers were uniquely priveleged men. If you look at all peopl, you had children dying before reaching adulthood, women dying in childbirth, slaves dying in the field, etc. However, you've asked for proof. So lets assume that public education started in 1850. http://tinyurl.com/2mndk9
Let's look at life expectancy for 1850: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html You can see that if you were a white male and you lived to be 40, you had a pretty good shot at living to be 70. This is a surprise to me: if white women lived to be 40, they were also quite likely to live to 70. But the average lifespan for all whites in 1850 was around 40. Lifespans for people of other races were quite a bit shorter.

Yeah, and you're a brainchild, obviously.

http://tinyurl.com/ywz2me
Obviously, whatever education you got wasn't adequate to teach you about history. You've consistently refused to answer whether your education was public or not. I can only assume you'd be proud to stand up and say it wasn't if that is the case, so apparently it was.

No one is denying the current system is not the most efficient. But we as Americans tend to be very inefficient, because we have a lot of resources and because we're not much on looking to places that ARE working and borrowing their ideas.

Er, we haven't developed throughout history, but only throughout the past 350 years or so, about half of which has had public education.

I am trying to figure out where you see a decline. The vast majority of our population has enough to eat every day. People are healthy and living longer. Most people are gainfully employed. Crime rates are relatively low. What decline are you talking about?

It's 36% in Community Colleges http://tinyurl.com/2e5e9d , which is where the remedial type people tend to go, more so than full-fledged Colleges and Universities. I suspect it is lower there, but really I'm tired of doing web searches because you're ignorant.

I couldn't find any hard data supporting your claim. I found one guy who listed a lot of successful people who never went to college and succeeded, but nothing on whether or not there was a correlation between attending college and a productive work life. I guess it is your turn to provide a cite.
-Amy
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Which coincides nicely with the introduction of widespread free public education.

Well, certainly we consume excessively, pollute excessively, and have no idea how to use our resources effectively. However, that is all symptomatic of a robust economy and little social consciense, two things you approve of heartily.

Well, clearly you can't list any areas where the country has actually declined, so I guess this discussion is over.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Since you can't (obviously can't since you have had two opportunities so far and haven't) point to any area the country has declined, I think we can consider this discussion over.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

So what we need is to get 6-yr-olds back into the factories, do away completely with anything even remotely resembling worker safety, return to the Company Town and Company Store system, return to Boss Tweed politics, and go back to not giving a damn is there is a dead worker for every yard of railroad or pavement...?? Oh, and let's not forget the good old days of cholera, and rampant TB, and polio...
The past was not perfect. They had their problems then, we have our problems now, and we solve nothing by simply citing some need to return to a suppsoedly idyllic past. The past was never idyllic, unless perhaps one was wealthy - and even the wealthy got polio.
THere are huge problems today, but there are also things I personally would not trade to return top the past. heck, a simple-enough example - Dr. S. Waxman, working at Rutgers University - yes, one of those horrible, evil public institutions - discovered tetracycline. I was one of the first guinea pigs to get it - I was not even two, and dying from a URI, so the doctors had nothing to lose by giving it to me. And, for better or worse, here I am...
THe past is a fabric, a tapestry, and present-day solutions can't be achieved by merely cutting cutting patches from the past and sewing them on. Society *as a whole* needs to reassess itself.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Like in the days of the railroad tycoons and the company towns?

But the way you talk, for there to be freedom, nobody can ever choose to be enough of a part of a community to agree to act in accordance with a community's decision to act as a unit.
I say "community", and you launch into a tirade about governemnt.

WHy do you react *that* way?

How is a waiting period in violation of the right to bear arms? That amendment does not address the issue at all - it does not say "at the drop of a hat". I've been a gun owner and handgunner for most of my life, but I don't think that it's necessarily a good idea for someone to be able to buy a firearm in the heat of an emotional problem. Personally, I'm not necessarily even against making people take a safety course before they can purchase their first firearm, because too many poele have no idea of how to handle firearms safely (whcih is one of the things one would learn when arms were considered essential parts of a household).
And what any of that has to do with apprenticeships, I don't know. I've never said anything against apprenticeships. Or do you *assume* that "education" *has* to mean "kindergarten through graduate school"? Hell, when I was in school, everything was a lot better when they still had "tech track" programs, where kids *could* choose to learn a trade, as opposed to everyone acting as though a college education was The Universal End-All And Be-All for *everyone*. Doing away with that created a lot of problems, and created Zero solutions.
But even apprentices benefit greatly if they learn to read, write, and do some math.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The 2nd Amendment is a right guaranteed to the States, not the people living in them ;-)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

SOmeone else emntioned the bit about "regulating" the militia - I shouldn't write when I'm this tired, because now I can't recall exactly what was said. But th epoint was that there isn't anything that rejects something like a waiting period, as opposed to letting peole go right in and buy aweapon immediately. That's what I meant by "drop of a hat" - immediately. THe only worry there being if someone is in a drunken rage.
At teh saem time, I was able to go in a buy a handgun. THey did run my license through a criminal database, but that only took about half an hour.

I don't see it in such drastic terms.

I'm not denying anyone anything, but I am saying that safety training would be a good thing. A lot fo people don't know the first thing about gun safety, and frankly, when their house might be 20 feet from my house, sorry but the possibility of having *my* head blown off by someone with no knowledge of gun safety sort-of makes it my business, jsut as it's my businwess if someone has a pitbull trained to be a killer, and lets it run all over the neighborhood.
DOn't put words into my mouth and say I'm "denying" anyone anything - a safety course is jsut that, something to help both th egun owner, and the people who live in hte same neighborhood (since we all can';t live on 5- 10 acre parcels).
After all, why does the otehr person have a right to endanger the safety of others because of refusing to take a safety course? The sword cuts both ways.

Again, I never said that, and it's an extremist comment that sidesteps the rather narrow point - which is that what safety training does is *reduce the chance* that a person will do something stupid that might harm him/her, and/or others. It's not a gurantee, it's an improvement of the odds. My father taught me gun safety (he was a championship shooter), but not everyone has the benefit of that sort of knowledge. So what is so wrong about teaching people to handle their guns safely?

Apples an pranges. FIrstly, regardless of the person's rac, nobody should cavalierly bring a gun into a schoolroom - if nothing else, you never know when one of the kids might do something unpredictable. That is jsut common sense.
Secondly, of course there is no such thing as eliminating stupidity - the point is to *reduce the chance* that an untrained person, who has no idea whatsoever of what s/he is doing, will harm others.
Sorry, but ignorance is *not* better than training. Note that I said "ignorance" and not "stupidity" - ignorance is simply the condition of not knowing, although it's often used to mean someone who resists learning. THe point is that mere ignorance can be rectified, whereas stupidity is the state of being *incapable* of learning.

I tend to be rather practical. What often causes peroblems is that people latch onto pet theories (a theory being something that has at leeast some basis, however tenuous, in fact) or mere beliefs (a beleif being something that does not require any connection to practical reality), and cling to them, even when they fail repeatedly in the face of practicalities.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

How long is this thread gonna go sheesh.
It really is funny listening to Don argue. He loves to argue how stupid "what ifs" are, and how bringing up the extremes is not answering the question. That is until it suits his purposes.
I want my toys and I want them NOW! It's really time to grow up Don and play nice like most adults do. Of course I really truly do welcome you to buy some island, or build one of them fake ones even, and make due with what you've got right on that island. No worries about roads and schools and anything else. Well food might be a problem, possibly electricity, but hey you've got a drafting table right :).
--
Edgar



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

What's so extreme about:
carrying personal nukes,
abolishing all cities,
and slaughtering all (what was it again?) (everyone in the herd? conformists?) ( I can't remember the slur.)?
Sounds like you haven't been to Don-U-slavia. (I've decided to tweak the name as this more aptly describes it.) No one has higher education because everyone is home-schooled and then put to work at 12, and no one needs psychotropic prescriptions, and everyone minds there own business until he thinks they aren't living up to their patriotic duty.
(Imagine his posts on an internet designed by a home-schooled twelve year old...hehe. Wait...imagine his computer. Seriously though, doesn't his 'philosophy' remind you of someone....
http://www.math.ku.edu/~evanvleck/yosemite.gif ?)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

It's my impression that Don, like most people, says extreme things when he's frustrated.
Personally, however much you think certain discussions are a waste, what I see as the most wasteful is name-calling, and time wasted on personal attacks. If you disagree with something someone says, fine, say so, but forgoing a critique in favor of name-calling and all fo this "So-and-so is a such-and-such" behavior is really kind of childish.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Hasn't the discussion already entered that arena long before we even posted our childish remarks? I don't see him treating Amy or even you much better than I have been treated in the past. Your taking my remarks personally, except they weren't aimed at you.
--
Edgar



Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I was speaking generally. The operative Old Saw is "if the shoe fits, wear it", but I have the same opinion of name-calling no matter when or where it happens and who does it <shrug>.

I guess I just don't take Don's peroverbial "bark" to heart (referring to that old saing about "the barkis worse than the bite"). Maybe becasue I've know too many *real* psychos in my time...? Maybe because I expended so much energy in my 20's through early 40's getting all riled up about so many things, that I now do not have enough energy-reserves to waste on getting riled up...? I dunno, really, it's just how things currently are on Planet Kris ;)

Personally? I dunno, not really. I commented on a comment. I'd have made the same comment (and have, in the past) regardelss of who made it...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Kris Krieger wrote:

I suspect that too: Instead of some saying, "Hey! I resent that! And this is why:...", and owning up to their own inner emotions, they'll append them onto the subjects like a sticky note and say stuff like, "oxymoron!".

Actually, I think the children might (sometimes, if not always) get it from the adults. You also lob snarl-words of your own in your posts about "third persons", do you? ...You... you fu(dgl you...
...You're such a fu(dgl. ;)
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.